Date: Sun,7 Jun 1998 10:31:59 -0800
From: Michael Moore
> I'm considering going to an electronic ignition. There is an
> article in this month's 'Old Bike Journal' on installing a Boyer
> -Brasden unit. But I am concerned with the fact that it fires
both
> plugs at the same time. Buzz Buzzelli writes in the 'Sportster
> Performance Handbook' that double fire ignitions don't work well
in
> Harleys because when one side is firing properly under compression,
> the other piston is starting its intake stroke. The result
is that
> the partial charge in that cylinder can fire, which messes things
> up a bit.
Hello Robert,
The waste spark on the 360 degree crank bikes is so out of phase on the "dead" cylinder that it has no effect on running.
Before buying a Boyer you might wish to read some of the information on the Lucas Rita systems on my website, so that you will be able to make a more informed purchase decision.
Cheers,
Michael
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:59:35 +0100
From: Philip Pick
On Mon 06 Jul, Jim Mason wrote:
> ----------
> > From: Jim Mason
> > Date: Sunday, July 05, 1998 1:39 PM
> >
> > In a message dated 98-07-02 12:31:16 EDT, Jim Mason writes:
> >
> > So I
> > scurried down to the local salvage yard and picked up a late model
> > Suzuki GSX-R dual lead coil It's dimensions were slightly smaller
than the
> > Boyer and I didn't need to heat sink it. >>
> >
> > Jim -
> >
> > I hope you checked the primary resistance on the coil you installed.
It
> > should be between 3 - 4.5 ohms, or you will fry the Boyer.
> >
> > Stan Smith
> > Rocky Point Cycle
>
> The Boyer literature says 2.4 Ohms. I had a word with John Healy
and he
> said the coil I chose, at 2.8 Ohms, should work well. He suggested
I keep
> an eye on it in v. hot weather.If it gets hot to the touch, I will
add a
> resistor to the circuit.
>
> Is there any specific reason you feel the 2.4 Ohm Boyer minimum is
> inadequate and could cook the box?
The MKIII (Black coloured box) Boyer amplifier is not a current limited device. The current (amps) being switched by the main power transistor is only limited by the primary resistance of the coil used.
Less primary resistence, more current. Too low a primary resistance and Boyer will have sold a new amplifier......
The red cased amplifiers (sold as 'micro digital') are current limited in the design of the amplifier, so the need for certain resistance coils had different parameters.
Regards
Philip Pick
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:37:12 +0100
From: Philip Pick
On Tue 07 Jul, Peter Aslan wrote:
> Are you sure that the Resistance of the Coil is the total resistace
of two
> coils ?
If in series, then yes.
> In most Boyer applications discussed here, the coils are wired in
series,
> so if a Coils resistance is 2.5 Ohms, then the combined resistance
of two
> coils in series will be 5 Ohms.
Correct, 10/10
> Just be sure that the specification from the Boyer, is for the Total
> Resistance.
Yes, correct
> The combined 'twin' HT Lead coils on the Japanese Bikes tend
> to have just one primary winding, hence the lower single coil type
> resistance.
Correct, so the primary resistance must be higher than a single coil, so the current switched by the box is the same (ie, not too high). A case of caution required.
--
Philip Pick
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:38:10 -0700
From: Jim Mason
On Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:47 AM Peter Aslan Wrote:
> Are you sure that the Resistance of the Coil is the total resistace
of two
> coils ?
[SNIP]
Peter,
The goal here is to stay under the 5 Amp threshold. As Phil said 12V / 2.4 Ohms = 5 Amps. So as long as total circuit resistance is at least 2.4 Ohms, the box will be OK. Stan and Phil were making the point that 2.4 Ohms is a borderline figure as, for instance, system voltage is often greater than 12V. Their suggestion to me was simply that 3 Ohms total resistance provides a safer environment for the black box. According to John Healy, the added resistance will help the coil run cooler as well.
I still haven't gotten them to tell me if I should solder a 1 Ohm resistor into the circuit, how to do that, and where I might find such an animal; but I'm wearing them down.
Jim Mason
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:25:10 +0100
From: Peter Aslan
Well, having finally got to the bottom of the Backfire problem, I was
out
the other day for a bit of a thrash, (made it to 100 on the Bypass).
After about 25 Miles, the bike cut-out suddenly once, then back in. Then a few minutes later, one big backfire and nothing.
Amazingly, this was at the bottom of the drive, and it was just a few minutes push to get the bike back into the garage.
Once there, I started the bike again. Removed the old points cover, twiddled the wires leading to the Boyer Pickup, and the bike stopped again. Pretty conclusive, the problem was with the pickup exactly as postulated here for about the last five years.
In order to remove any of the obvious problems, I cleaned the connectors, there may have been some flux on the bullets I soldered to the wires from the Pickup and the old points harness, and re-soldered all of the connections on the back of the Boyer Pickup circuit board.
Last night I timed it with a Strobe, its hard to keep the bike still enough on the centre stand at 5000 RPM, to obtain the required 31 Degrees BTDC.
Tonight, as its the first Tuesday in the Month, I'll be going to the NOC at the Northall Inn. I guess I'll find out if It's fixed or not.
Regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton). Louden Quill Award.
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:43:22 -0400
From: harold
Boyer trouble indeed. I can't figure out what I'm missing. My A-65 BSA chugs away with the points (contact breakers) I found in one of the baskets the rest of the bike came in. I got a spare set of points stashed on the bike, taped behind the side cover, and that's about it.
The Lucas coils of unknown resistance are always along for the ride, as are the condensers, content to fart out a spark when the points goose 'em. The most expensive hunk in the entire scenario is about $12, assuming that extra coils and condensers are lying about in my junk box. And should it ever quit, I'll know by real simple trouble shooting which of the ignition components crapped out. Chances are, a bit of the old in-out with an emery board will get me home. Speaking of all of those components, they are super tolerant of the alarming voltage fluctuations which come with the territory.
So what drives the rush to solid state stuff? Me, I don't need
no stinkin' transistors. If I wanna go like hell, I fire up the Suzuki.
--
Harold
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:04:17 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Aslan
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, harold wrote:
> Boyer trouble indeed. I can't figure out what I'm missing.
My A-65 BSA
> chugs away with the points (contact breakers) I found in one of the
> baskets the rest of the bike came in. I got a spare set of
points
> stashed on the bike, taped behind the side cover, and that's about
it.
[Long disertation on the benifits of 3rd World technology Cut]
I don't wish to start a bit of a warm exchange here on this subject.
I was one of the ones on the list expounding the virtues of the Points and Coils system. I even replaced the Boyer on one of the Commando's with a Points system, hence the spare Boyer in the Garage used on this particular bike as a diagnostic tool which I used to sort out some problems with the Amals. (see Backfire Bomber)
Now I appear to be getting the same problems most other Boyer owners get, cut outs and backfires. Probable cause: intermittent wiring down by the pickup, marginal when hot.
If I cant sort this out soon, I will probably go back to the Points, Its just the kind of Guy I am.
BTW: I Guess your Suzuki has electronic Ignition.
> So what drives the rush to solid state stuff? Me, I don't need
no
> stinkin' transistors. If I wanna go like hell, I fire up the
Suzuki.
Regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton). Louden Quill Award.
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:37:40 -0400
From: harold
> BTW: I Guess your Suzuki has electronic Ignition.
I'd have to guess too, since I've only ridden the bike 17,000 miles so far. It may even have sparkplugs as well. How would I know? I just turn it on and haul ass.
> [Long disertation on the benifits of 3rd World technology Cut]
Long? c'mon: gimmie some slack. That wasn't long.
I can't figure out this rush to boyer systems. When I started on my BSA everybody says "its the only way to go." Well, I have about 5k on the A-65F since rebuild - an infamous home-rebuild - and the damn thing, much to my constant astonishment, cranks on the first kick. Well, OK, after two prime, iginition off kicks, but as you know those don't count.
I haven't adjusted the points or anything else since the mill was on my bench.
I'd sure like to ride a Norton sometime. Next daytona, I'm gonna beg somebody to let me take it around the block. Of all the brit bikes, I like the aesthetics of the Norton best.
Thanks for the note.
--
Harold
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:59:25 EDT
From: John Magyar
In a message dated 98-07-07 08:26:42 EDT, Peter writes:
>the bike cut-out suddenly once, then back in. Then a
>few minutes later, one big backfire and nothing.
>
>Amazingly, this was at the bottom of the drive, and it was just a
few
>minutes push to get the bike back into the garage.
>
>Once there, I started the bike again. Removed the old points cover,
>twiddled the wires leading to the Boyer Pickup, and the bike stopped
again.
>Pretty conclusive, the problem was with the pickup exactly as postulated
>here for about the last five years.
>
>In order to remove any of the obvious problems, I cleaned the connectors,
>there may have been some flux on the bullets I soldered to the wires
from
>the Pickup and the old points harness, and re-soldered all of the
>connections on the back of the Boyer Pickup circuit board.
Peter:
I and others have had poor success with the bullet connectors supplied with the Boyer system. It seems as though the vibration of the engine works the connectors (under the points cover) loose. I found that doing away with these connectors and direct soldering the wires under the point cover has solve my problem.
Regards,
John Magyar
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:48:56 -0700
From: Jim Mason
Peter,
Could you repeat, for the benefit of my feeble memory, the pickup problems with the Boyer you referred to here?
Don't know if you caught it, but all this to and throw regarding coils was started by me when I experienced a cutting out problem on a ride a week or so ago. Since it was only 1 cyl on a twin, I concluded it must be plugs, wires, or coils, and not the Boyer unit itself.
Jim Mason
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:23:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Aslan
Jim, I can look out the articles if you wish, but the jest of it is that a lot of people have reported problems with Boyer Ignition causing a loss of ignition when the bike is hot, or intermittent when running.
All such problems have been traced to the pickup assembily and breaks in either the connectors, (Crimp on Bullets) or the wires that are soldered to the Fibreglass Circuit board.
All problems have reportedly been fixed by soldering the Points Harness wires directly to the PCB, or to solder on terminal connectors or Solder Posts.
FWIW, I find all this surprising as the wires to the PCB are soldered and then glued and Tie Wrapped in place. But then I also have the above mentioned problem.
Regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton). Louden Quill Award.
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:44:28 -0700
From: Jim Mason
Wow. That is bad news.
I wouldn't have thought that Boyer pickup could fail no matter what. The soldered connections are all v. good etc.
I thought it must be in the wires/plugs/coils if for no other reason than it only happened on one cylinder.
Did you solder your harness wires directly to the board?
Thanks for the info.
Jim Mason
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven R. Schoner
Been following this thread, and I too have experienced this problem with the pickup board 's bullet connectors. Solution-- get rid of them! The bullet connectors that is. What is happening is that the wires going through the board and point soldered are weakening, then breaking at the point where they enter the board. This creates a minute break in the circuit that can be very frustrating to eliminate. The bike will run perfectly one moment, then die the next.
What I did to fix mine, was to unsolder the wires, removing them from the board. Next I carefully drilled out the two holes so that short 6-32 brass screws could fit through. (Make sure the heads do not touch) Next, screw a bras nut to the other end, then solder the head to the board.
Then replace the bullet end of the wiires that go to the boyer black box with regular "Y" blade conectors using a brass nut to secure them to the altered circuit board pickup module.
It will never backfire again.
Steven R. Schoner (Meteorite Man and Seeker),
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:08:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Aslan
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 John Magyar wrote:
> In a message dated 98-07-07 08:26:42 EDT, Peter writes:
>> the bike cutout suddenly once, then back in. Then a
>> few minutes later, one big backfire and nothing.
[Usual Description of Boyer Problem Cut]
> Peter:
> I and others have had poor success with the bullet connectors supplied
with
> the Boyer system. It seems as though the vibration of the engine
works the
> connectors (under the points cover) loose. I found that doing
away with these
> connectors and direct soldering the wires under the point cover has
solve my
> problem.
I actually removed the Crimped On Bullet Connectors supplied with the Boyer Using and Hand Soldering the bass style bullets, as used on the rest of the harness originally. Still available if you look around.
As I said, my problem may have been caused by leaving the flux residue on the bullets after soldering.
I know several members have wired the units in with no connectors, or used solder in terminal blocks or posts, all with apparently good results.
I guess I'll have another go and remove the connectors If it still fails to work reliably.
Regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton). Louden Quill Award.
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:29:52 EDT
From: John Healy
This failure is VERY common on Norton installations. With the motor jumping around it tugs on the pick up leads. Be sure that the original rubber "Snubber" is on the wire where it goes through the casting. Also be sure that you have a generous loop of wire as it jumps to the frame down tube. If it is at all snug it will break the pick-up wire just as it goes into the board.
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:44:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Joe Schofield
Re. Pete Aslan's comments on fixing bad connections on his Boyer,
John
Magyar wrote:
>I and others have had poor success with the bullet connectors supplied
with
>the Boyer system. It seems as though the vibration of the engine
works the
>connectors (under the points cover) loose. I found that doing
away with these
>connectors and direct soldering the wires under the point cover has
solve my
>problem.
I would echo John's remarks, but also caution that a direct soldered set-up such as he describes has failed on my bike - the wires actually fracturing within the insulation. In my experience, unless you have somehow shorted out a Boyer, ALL defects of the system can be found close to the backplate connectors.
Curiously, the very early Boyer had screw connectors, long since discarded. They never failed by breaking, but occasionally came undone. This gave me a great familiarity with the 'inexplicable' popping and banging and trying-to-run-backwards symptoms of an ailing Boyer, which has set me in good store a couple of times since.
A useful trick to help diagnose faulty wiring between backplate and Boyer unit: take your plugs out, switch on and move the wires around as much as you can. When you hear the plugs clicking, you've found the dodgey connection or broken wire.
Regards, Joe Schofield.
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:45:07 EDT
From: Gold Star Ron
Yep.... you have a very well known and documented problem... What happens is that the little wires break where they attach to the circuit board, due to vibration. You should either replace the wires with a slightly larger diameter (more strenght) or do a mod that others have done... put a connector doriectly onto the circuit board, and attach the wires from there...
Cheers..!!!
Ron
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:33:51 +0000
From: neoludd
Pete: dont overlook the notion there are TWO problems here: a faulty pickup circuit AND a faulty ground. Check the blackbox's grounde very closely....Mutt, been there...
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:00:30 -0700
From: Gary Slabaugh
I am just now replying to Peter's post of last week as I have been away from my computer and I think I stumbled on to the ultimate cure for those Boyer wires vibrating loose.
Peter Aslan wrote:
> I know several members have wired the units in with no connectors,
or
> used solder in terminal blocks or posts, all with apparently good
results.
>
> I guess I'll have another go and remove the connectors If it still
fails
> to work reliably.
Peter,
Over 10 years ago and many thousands of miles on two Commandos, I did
the above, and in addition I glued a small piece of foam rubber (the kind
that comes free as packing material by some shippers) to the inside of
the points cover. When the cover is re-installed, the foam gives
the wires a cushy little bed to lie in and prevents them from moving around
with those wonderful Commando vibes. I have not had a problem since, and
if I have a chance to install another new Boyer, I would be tempted to
see if the supplied bullet connectors will survive with this apparent fix.
--
Gary Slabaugh Tucson, Arizona