Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:55:45 -0600
From: Bob Cram
Tom Allen wrote:
>The manuals warn you not to pull the wire to
check for spark and tool
>companies now supply a dummy plug for the purpose.
I have also been told
>NOT to pull one plug wire when syncronizing
carbs on bikes with electronic
>ignition. Does this distroy the amplifier or
the coils? I've never done it
>but I'd like to know."
It is my understanding, and certainly my practice, that it is all right to disconnect a plug while synchronizing carbs on bikes with Boyers, provided that you ground the disconnected plug. If the disconnected lead or plug does not have a path to ground, then you can damage the black box. I don't know for sure, but I presume this applies to other electronic ignitions too. I have a metal clip with which I can clip one end to the spark plug and the other to a cylinder head fin. This seems to work fine when synching carbs.
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:46:28 -0700
From: Michael Hosafros <hosafros@imperium.net>
Eric Goforth wrote:
> On the racer in question, I run a Boyer with
a total loss system from a
> battery. Normal on-load voltage is about 12.4
Volts. As it discharges down,
> the first noticeable signs are a misfire on
the overrun. This is usually at
> about 11 Volts. Quarter mile times are usually
down by about 2/10 second,
> which is a lot. The effect is similar to a
timing slip. By the time the
> battery is down to 10 volts, it pops and bangs
up the strip. The overall
> impression is that the timing varies with the
supply voltage. Anyone done any
> meaurements on this? If this is the case, there
must be a set voltage at which
> your timing is spot on.
>
> I believe that I've read somewhere that insufficient
battery voltage causes a
> Boyer not to retard the timing at low rpm and
instead run full advance all
> the time. I've also had problems with my bike
kicking back when I'd try to
> start it with a weak battery which would be
consistent with too much advance.
Hi Eric,
Here's the Boyer ignition technical data I got
years ago when they first came out.
1. This unit can have positive or negative ground, but the ignition coils must be fed from the positive side of the battery.Hope this helps,2. The minimum working voltage is 10 volts, and maximum 16 volts.
3. The maximum ignition coil current thru the unit must not exceed 5 amps. Check non-stock high output coils for current draw.
4. When fitting to machines with two coils, you can use two 12 volt coils in series. But for racing or high compression motors it is better to use two 6 volt coils in series, or one 12 volt double lead coil for better performance.
5. Grounding out the coils for more than 3 minutes will damage the unit. For safety when custom wiring a bike, always fit a fuse in the hot wire to the coils.
6. The resistance of the coils on the stator plate should be 33 ohms each, and the magnetic rotor should have the south poles of its magnets pointing outwards.
7. This unit can be adapted to work on many types of motors, firing 120* , 180*, or 360* camshaft or crankshaft driven.
8. This unit is capable of producing up to 24,000 sparks per minute.
9. Typical working advance range is 10* at 2,500 rpm, camshaft speed = 20 at 5,000 rpm crankshaft.
10. The unit draws 0.2 amps over the normal coil consumption and peak primary voltage is regulated at 300 volts.
11. This unit must always be operated with the frame or chassis acting as an electrical return for positive or negative ground. Also, if the motor is rubber mounted, a ground lead may be necessary.
12. Wiring should be as short as possible. Excess wire should not be coiled up, as this could affect the operation of the system.
13. This unit can be used without the battery using a capacitor system.
14. With this system all spark plugs are fired at the same time, so if the motor fails to run on a cylinder the fault can only be with the mechanicals of that cylinder, spark plug or lead, not the transistor box or stator plate.
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:10:46 -0400
From: J. Fielek
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, SKS3RD wrote:
> Why is the timing light not connected to the
bike's battery? Does
> this somehow affect the timing?
>
> Fred -
>
> It can affect the timing mark that you see
(the only thing that affects the
> timing is moving the pickup plate on the Boyer).
I just helped a guy from NM
> sort out his Commando - he said the timing
mark was jumping all around and
> thought (of course) that it was the black box.
He had the light hooked up the
> the bike's battery, so I told him to hook it
up to an external battery. The
> mark was then solid as a rock. Perhaps someone
more knowledgable than I can
> explain why.
Simple -- voltage oscillation at low RPM.
I've seen it on a number of bikes and cars with a) low batteries, b) marginal charging systems, and c) 6 volt systems.
J
Joshua J. Fielek DoD#385 AMA#517381 WERA#968
The Garage of Xanadu:
96 900SS-SP #A19 (Belldandy) 82 XV920R(Boomer)
Wrench Early, wrench often. 75 RD350 71 T120R
77 R100/7(Slash)
Happiness isn't getting what you want; it's wanting
what you got.
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:03:15 -0400
From: Mike Taglieri
>I thought the R.v B. might upset some, but since
I know little about
>this stuff I selfishly asked anyway. Information
gathering on the net
>does have it's drawbacks:).
>But just in the few posts I've seen it has helped
me a great deal,in
>deciding the proper choice for me. This list
seems to be a friendly
>place that furthers knowledge about British
motorcycles,and the more
>things you learn about the things you are interested
in, the better
>the chance you will stay with it.
You're completely right. It was unfair for me to suggest that newbies on this list shouldn't ask things they need to know just because some of us are shellshocked by the heat those issues raised in the past. As one of the walking wounded, I guess I wasn't too keen to revisit the scene of the battle, but I think I can summarize the various positions as follows:
Boyers and Ritas are both electronic ignitions that will give much more accurate timing than the points system. The pickup plates of Ritas are built of somewhat sturdier materials, and a Boyer may occasionally require a bit of tinkering with the security of the wires, etc., on the pickup plate, but Ritas cost as much as 2 or 3 times the price of a Boyer, which is less than $100 if you look around. However, Boyers work best on (but do not absolutely require) 6 volt coils. These are standard on Norton Commandos and some other bikes, but not on most bikes, so if you have to buy new coils, the price difference between Boyer and Rita is not as great. Finally, Boyers require no visible change to the engine whatever, but Ritas usually need more room in the points case, requiring bulging cover-plates that some people think spoils the appearance of the engine. Because of the price difference, Boyers far outnumber Ritas on this list.
My personal preference is the Boyer, which has given me fine service for many years, although I did mount and wire it into place in a beefier manner than standard, and maybe a Rita would not have required this. On either system, the black box itself will fail, if at all, within the first several hours, and afterwards is extremely reliable. Most complaints in these systems are caused by bad connections in OTHER parts of the wiring and particularly by bad grounding.
A small, but vocal minority of the people on this list have an entirely different view. They think that electronic ignitions are a ridiculous fad and complete rubbish that break down constantly, and they regularly ridicule the intelligence, parentage, etc., of anybody who uses one. This viewpoint may have arisen partly because the points system was original and historic on these bikes, and partly because it can be tinkered-with if it breaks down on the road and can almost always be made to get you home in some fashion. By contrast, once the timing is set, both Boyer and Rita will hold accurate timing for years without attention, but if their black boxes die on the road, a dealer may have to Fedex a component to you to make a repair, unless you carry spares. Also, it is difficult (though not impossible) to start a bike with an electronic ignition if your battery is dead, or to run without having a battery.
Boyers and Ritas are gradually winning out, partly because certain points-ignition parts have become very hard to find, and restoring a worn-out points system might well be the most expensive proposition of all.
Therefore, probably most Boyer/Rita installations are done after a biker gets the estimate for the parts to repair his points system.
OK, I'm sure everyone will jump on me now, but I think the above is a fair statement of everyone's position.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 08:14:25 +0000
From: Michael Moore
From: MikeTnyc@aol.com
<snip>
>unless you carry spares. Also, it is difficult
(though not
>impossible) to start a bike with an electronic
ignition if your
>battery is dead, or to run without having a
battery.
<snip>
>OK, I'm sure everyone will jump on me now, but
I think the above is a
>fair statement of everyone's position.
Hello Mike,
A pretty fair assessment of the situation. I will make one correction. If your alternator is in good condition, so that it puts out good power at cranking speed, the RITA will start and run just fine without a battery (you will need a 2MC capacitor in place of the battery).
I usually recommend to people who find batteries offensive to install the smallest possible battery (and there are some small ones) just to ensure a good flow of power to the ignition when starting. However, the RITA on my B50MX with the partial ET stator would start and run without a battery, it just wasn't a first kick all the time proposition (though it was much better than the ET system was) as is usually the case with a good condition 120w stator. The addition of the battery will allow those who can't always give the engine a firm boot to experience easy starting.
At times, the RITA vs Boyer discussion does sound a bit like the old Harley vs Limey bike debates: "Yeah?" "Yeah!" "Oh YEAH?" "YEAH!" etc.
Cheers,
Michael Moore