From: John Kula
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 94 14:46:35 PDT
Humour me for a moment, and replace "Black Box" with "Catholic" and
"Points" with "Protestant". Now, explain to me once more what this argument
is all about?
John Kula
From: Stephen Hill
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 1994 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
John Kula writes (in mock confusion, but we know better, he really is
confused):
"Humour me for a moment, and replace "Black Box" with "Catholic" and
"Points" with "Protestant". Now, explain to me once more what this argument
is all about?"
Okay John, I'll draw you a picture. You see, in the Catholic model of
electronic ignition, it all started with original sin. So when it breaks,
and eventually it will, you deserve it, and there is not a damn thing you
can do about it.
And in the Protestant model of contact point ignition, when it breaks
you fix it, regularly, thereby demonstrating your worth through hard work
and receiving your rewards by enjoying your material possession.
Myself, I am an atheist: I don't believe there is an ignition heaven.
From: John S. Covell
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:41:54 -0800
... where's the fun? Why not non-adjustable valves? Why not non-tickling carbs? I understand the idea of improving something,...
I hate to belabour the obvious, but isn't the fun in riding the motorcycle? As opposed to working on it. I installed a Boyer on my Norton Mk.3 almost ten years ago and, except for one unfortunate episode traced directly to a bad wiring connection by me, the Boyer has never let me down and has never required any attention whatever. My last set of NGKs lasted about six years.
Don't worry, be happy.
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 09:06:19 +0200
Stephen Hill declared:
>Myself, I am an atheist: I don't believe there is an ignition heaven.
>It's situated in Germany and is called Bosch........
Espen
From: Bob Cram
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 09:12:20 +0000
[Hell] called Lucas in England. Well, maybe that's not fair. People tell me the Lucas Rita electronic ignition works well. Although I've noticed everyone on brit-iron talks about Boyers. Any reason why more people aren't using the Lucas Rita??
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 08:28:43 CDT
Oy vay!
Prods and Catholics in the same 'lectrical system!!
No wonder there's trouble!!!
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 8:31:12 PDT
Bob Cram writes:
>If ignition heaven is called Bosch and is Germany, then ignition hell
must be called Lucas in England.
>Well, maybe that's not fair. People tell me the Lucas Rita electronic
ignition works well. Although
>I've noticed everyone on brit-iron talks about Boyers.
>
>Any reason why more people aren't using the Lucas Rita??
Mainly because they cost more that twice as much as the Boyer.
Ralph
From: Wayne Hutchings
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:39:55 +0100 (BST)
If ignition heaven is called Bosch and is Germany, then ignition hell must be called Lucas in England.
Hmmm, well a friend in t'office that has a TR8 and raves about that
says that Lucas are well known to similar types (?) as
"Lucas - Prince of Darkness", cos the lights keep going out!
;-)
Well, maybe that's not fair. People tell me the Lucas Rita electronic ignition works well. Although I've noticed everyone on brit-iron talks about Boyers. Any reason why more people aren't using the Lucas Rita??
Yeah, my Trident had the Lucas Rita ignition system fitted when I bought it, so I haven't known any better (or worse!) I think its probably a matter of which you first heard of, or which article you first read, or what rumour you heard in a pub one day about which is "the best"! Cheers, Wayne
From: GNBII
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 13:24:38 EDT
Although I've noticed everyone on brit-iron talks about Boyers. Any reason why more people aren't using the Lucas Rita??
I believe because the Boyer is cheaper and allows you to use the stock points cover, which the Rita does not. The Rita Points cover is squared off as opposed to gradually radiuses, giving a somewhat clunky appearance.
Beyond that, in my opinion, the Lucas Rita may have a better advance curve. Mine was unfortunately sheared off in an accident and though it is serviceable, I was on the way to a Norton Rally in Ohio where I won a Boyer. Having repaired that ones ills, I have stuck with it. And by the way, you gotta have a REALLY good charging system for any EI, IMHO.
Bewley
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 13:18:57 -0500 (EST)
If ignition heaven is called Bosch and is Germany, then ignition hell must be called Lucas in England.
I get it! Ignition heaven is where all my money has gone. For the record:
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Now Boyer, that is another story. The grass is not always greener.
Pete
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 01:21:00 EDT
Never buy points again. I guess that's all right, but where's the fun? Why not non-adjustable valves? Why not non-tickling carbs? I understand the idea of improving something, but the big draw for me originally was that Brit-Bikes could be fixed on the fly if necessary. . . . Setting dead in the road because of a black box sounds kinda like a step back to me.
Humour me for a moment, and replace "Black Box" with "Catholic" and "Points" with "Protestant". Now, explain to me once more what this argument is all about?
I hate to inject some perhaps unwanted logic into a religious argument that deserves none, but with extremely few exceptions every single bike sold since the early 80's has had an electronic ignition, and we don't see masses of jap bike would-be riders huddled by the side of the road holding a street cleaner bristle wishing they had points.
Despite the consensus of all reasonable people that the Commando is the finest motorcycle in the history of Western Civilisation [lucky none of these Triumph guys know where I live], that doesn't mean it cannot be improved in any of its details. We all buy Superblends now, and late-production pistons with crowns that stay on, oil filters you throw away instead of washing out, and oil lines that keep the oil on the inside. Also many people DO buy "non-tickling carbs" -- a carb with a funny name from the mystic East that not only bypasses tickling, but synchronising, and doesn't even shake itself to pieces every 5000 miles. So much for grand traditions.
I like working on my bike, but I get satisfaction out of fixing things once that stay fixed, something no Lucas points-system will ever claim. The Boyer has its flaws, but solid-state devices tend to fail in their first hours if they fails at all. Thereafter, it's good for thousands of miles between tune-ups. If Bert Hopwood were sitting down at his drawing board today to design the Norton twin, does anybody seriously believe HE'D specify points? So why should we?
Virtually all problems with Boyers [and Ritas too] stem from wiring flaws, bad grounds, etc., and most of the system CAN BE repaired "on the fly." The only "electronic" part is the black-box itself, smaller than a pack of unfiltered cigarettes. Stick a spare in your headlamp shell if you're so worried about failures -- it takes up less room there than the shoebox of points and auto-advances it'll replace before it goes.
Mike Taglieri
From: Ken Solomon
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 13:20:22 -0700 (MST)
Hi gang! Well, this being my third attempt I hope I've solved the problem.
Anyway: I'm a new initiate to the group and all of us new guys are asked to post some background so: I'm not a multiple owner as so many of you seem to be but I do have a 1962 BSA Thunderbolt (at least I think it's a Thunderbolt) My bother brought it back from England in 1974 and it languished in Vermont and New York for a number of years. I brought it out to New Mexico in 1987 and rebuilt it in the summer of 88, and 89, 90...well, you know how it goes you're never finished. Anyway, during a top end this summer I got the head to stop leaking and I also decided to put in an electronic ignition. (I had already removed the price of darkness quite some time ago.
Now for the problem: Since Boyer only sells 12V systems (I was told after they were supposed to have sent me a 6V system) I had to replace the coils, and the alternator. I also replaced the bridge with a solid state voltage reg. Now the bike is almost impossible to start cold. It used to kick over after one or two kicks and a good tickle. Now it takes about 1/2 an hour of solid kicking. I'm getting a healthy spark and the timing seems to be ok. I even tried fussing with the timing while I kicked it over (same as if you took a distributor out of a car) but no luck.
Once it starts (I have to richen the hell out of it to get it to start)
I have to lean it up as it warms up. Once it is warm it start like a champ.
There was a vacuum leak and I thought that was the problem but I fixed
it and still no luck (it was leaking form the
rocker box cover). This is driving me nuts! Does anyone have any suggestions?
Since it's winter I'm in no rush but it would be nice to have it ready
for summer. BTW: once it's running it feels really good. Oh, did I forget
to say it has an A65 engine (single carb).
Thanks for the good reading that you'll have been providing and in advance
for any suggestions.
Ken Solomon
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 16:15 EST
From: Latte' Jed
>Now the bike is almost impossible to start cold.....
Are you running with a battery or without? The electronic ignitions can be finicky about wanting full voltage to run, so if your battery is lame, or you're trying to run batteryless (which would have worked fine before the EE) you won't get full voltage until the bike's above idle. If you have a fully charged battery this shouldn't be a problem.
You say you've got a healthy spark and the timing's ok, if you have a brit biker friend you might want to have them double-check your work to see if you missed something totally obvious. Other than that you should just need fuel to run, and your fuel system sounds suspect from Once it starts (I have to richen the hell out of it to get it to start)
If you tickle it till you're standing in a puddle of gas and kick it a bunch the plugs should get wet - are they? If not, well, I don't know - maybe you've got ping bong balls stuck in the intake ports? Make sure your plugs are good and clean, or, better yet, new. Try spraying a bunch of carb cleaner or starting fluid in the intake and then kick it over. It should start real easy on that stuff. If not, well, get a triumph. Uh, no, wait - if not, then that means the problem probably isn't fuel, so it's something else that you already double-checked.
Can you confirm that the valves are opening? I bought a Ducati 250 once real cheap from a guy who couldn't get it running, it turned out he'd put the cam in 180 degrees out of phase and it was sucking in the muffler and blowing out the carb. No shit. (he worked in a bike shop too! Cycles 128 in case you know the shop.) There's a point at which you've gotta check the obvious - are there holes in the pistons? Is there a crank in the case? Are the conrods connected to the right pistons and not crossed over to the other cylinder? Could you have accidentally gotten the pushrods mixed up with some like the ones used in the Spagthorpe Whippet, the double-reciprocating bobble gear ones, that use a crank speed cam and the pushrods convert the valve timing to 1/2 crank speed? It may seem unlikely but it happens.
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 08:37:44 +1100
From: Roy Armstrong
Welcome to the group Ken
You asked about the BSA A65:
****** stuff deleted ******
>Since Boyer only sells 12V systems (I was told after they were supposed
to have sent me a 6V
>system) I had to replace the coils, and the alternator. [Snip]
>Now it takes about 1/2 an hour of solid kicking. [Snip]
I am not sure what you mean with the 12V and 6V references. As I understand standard Boyers require a 12V supply. You can however fit 6V or 12V coils. I have a 12V Boyer with 6V coils fitted to my Lightning, although I have run it with 12V coils. The reasoning given for fitting 6V coils is that you will get a bigger spark.
When it comes to starting I have found more often than not that A65s need lots of fuel. I fitted chokes and in order to get the fuel wear it is needed I give the throttle a few good twists before cranking it over. The engine now starts allot easier using this method.
Good luck with your bike
Safe riding Roy.
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:37:17 +0000 (GMT)
On Mon, 19 Dec 1994 KEN SOLOMON@technet.nm.org wrote:
>Now the bike is almost impossible to start cold......
Ken, I assume the battery is Ok and is charging well. It sounds like you may have converted your cycle to 12 Volts, with 12 volt coils, and installed the Boyer which assumes 6 Volt coils. Let me explain, The old folk at Lucas would have used two 6 volt coils when the bike was new, as the system was a 6 Volt system, no problems. Boyer usually assume you have the original equipment and may have taken this into account, however, you have replaced the Coils with two 12 Volt items. I know the ol' Commando has 6 volt coils, but when you install a Boyer, you wire the Coils in series, so you get like one 12 Volt coil which fires on both cylinders at the same time, this is no problem really, as one pot will be on the exhaust stroke anyhow.
So, where does this leave your bike ? It seems reasonable that Boyer do only make 12 Volt systems, but they may expect you to convert to a 12 volt system but may save the trouble and expense of replacing the coils by configuring them like the ol' Commando, in series, are you sure the Boyer kit was for this particular bike, any notes on system and coil voltage, are the coils wired in series ??? If the Coils are in fact wired in series, the spark will be a lot weaker than it should be and may well explain the poor starting.
By the way, since the bike was running well, before the Boyer was installed, has anything else been touched. Its Illogical to assume that the Carb is at fault if its just gone straight back on the bike.
Ramble mode off, please check the electrical details and get back to the list with the answers,
Regards, Captain Norton...
From: GNBII
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:36:18 -0500
Just took this down from Brit_Iron, and I think this may be the best advice I have ever seen on a list, and some I make use of when REALLY frustrated, so thought I would repost. It pertains to all machinery.
mason@morchella.ftp.com writes on 12/19/94:
>You say you've got a healthy spark and the timing's ok, if you have
a brit biker friend you might want
>to have them double-check your work to see if you missed something
totally obvious....
Good advice,
Bewley/Atlanta
"Evian is naive spelled backwards."
From: Ken Solomon
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 7:46:07 -0700 (MST)
Thanks for the rapid reply Cap!
Well, the coils are wired in series as per the diagram that came with
the ignition. The instructions specifically tell you to use 12V coils so
I don't know what's going on. I have checked anything that Boyer came me
info for and everything is within spec.
Re: has anything else been touched? A: What hasn't? The carb is OK
though. At first I thought there might be some gunk in it so I took it
off and cleaned it but it was AOK.
I still obviously at a loss. Again, thanks for the reply. Good holidays,
Ken.
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:36:12 +0000 (GMT)
[sorry forgot to forward to the list, this darn new mail server. For your edification:]
On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 Ken Solomon Wrote:
>Well, the coils are wired in series as per the diagram that came with
the ignition. The instructions
>specifically tell you to use 12V coils so I don't know what's going
on. I have checked anything that
>Boyer came me info for and everything is within spec.
If they are 12 Volt Coils, and they are wired in series, there can only be a maximum of 6 volts across each terminal, and as they are 12 volt Coils they MUST be running at half power.
I would venture to suggest that the Boyer diagram assumes you are using the 6 volt coils that came with the bike. Further that this is indeed the problem, or a major part of it..
Good luck and try putting the old coils back and BTW, don't put the coils the wrong way round like I did, remember this is a Positive Earth Motorcycle.
Regards Captain Norton.
From: Ken Solomon
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 12:56:11 -0700 (MST)
Peter Aslan Wrote:
>I would venture to suggest that the Boyer diagram assumes you are
using the 6 volt coils that came with the bike.
>Further that this is indeed the problem, or a major part of it..
Actually Boyer does not assume that in the instructions it states that: "For low compression engines two 12 volt coils in series are satisfactory, but for racing and high compression engines two 6 volt coils in series or one 12 volt double ended coil will give the best results.
Anyway, I already tried putting back the 6 volters but no luck. I did
find the problem though not the solution. For some reason gas is not being
sucked in from the carb. I've checked and cleaned it thoroughly but no
luck. If I tickle the carb and kick it a bunch of times the plugs stay
dry. I don't know what's up but I have all winter to
figure it out.
>Good luck and try putting the old coils back and BTW, don't put the
coils the wrong way round like I did,
>remember this is a Positive Earth Motorcycle.
>
>Regards Peter Aslan.
Thanks for the reply and happy new year.
Ken
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 10:13:53 +0200
2) ~1966 BSA FireBird (650cc I believe) - put in a new Boyer and now having electrical problems. Hard to start (not enough spark?) and the bike tends to cut out, especially when the headlamp is turned on, which seems a dead give-away that it is electrical. Bought it at a swap meet and the guy told him he'd need different 6V coils (something about amperage I believe) which were bought. Both plugs ARE sparking, and timing is set according to instructions). Any ideas to lessen our time in electrical hell?
Battery Battery Battery Battery.........
The problems sounds *just* like those I had with the Trumpet. It turned out to be low voltage on the battery as old Mr. magneto in the alternator was throwing in the towel. 5.5 V wasn't enough to charge the battery. The bike would start to run erratic, then on one cylinder and then on none...... Got it fixed with installing a new 12V alternator :-) but that is another story.
Still waiting for The Revenge of The Prince of Darkness
Espen
6.2 Boyer or Not, (The Endless Debate).
From: Daniel M. Milhone
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:55:20 +0800
Well, it looks like the Boyer unit has died on the Commando. Any opinions
on going with another Boyer, (shudder) or an alternative? Maybe a Lucas-Rita(sp.?)?
All suggestions, warnings, nightmares or happy tales are appreciated.
Thanks
Dan Milhone
From: Steve Moseley
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 16:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
I hear lots of stories of failed electronic ignitions, and of course
they fail without warning, and once they have failed, there's nothing you
can do but replace them. So what's the big problem with points and the
stock auto advance unit? Is the auto-advance unit simply doomed to wear
out so often, and new ones so unavailable, that it is impractical to keep
a bike in working order with stock components? I've only put about 2,000
miles on the Commando since I got it last December, so I am certainly inexperienced
and naive. But can't regular maintenance keep the stock stuff working well
enough?
Steve
From: Daniel M. Milhone
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 16:27:53 +0800
Tom:
In re:
-I believe that it is possible to go back to the original mechanical.
;-)
Thanks loads for the suggestion. Unfortunately, the guy who owned it previously tossed the original parts. This dude must have read the sales lit. and believed it. Maybe I can unload my Studebaker on him.
-By the way, do you want another MG Midget? I have a 1967 project car that I would like to get rid of!
As far as another Midget, they are ALL project cars, and my yard is starting to resemble a Bagshot-on-Thames junkyard. The neighbours have mounted a campaign of complaints concerning my vision of landscaping. These S. Californians have little appreciation of my "art". Perhaps I'll have to pass on your generous offer.
Dan M.
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 19:02 EDT
I hear lots of stories of failed electronic ignitions, and of course
they fail without warning, and once they have failed,
there's nothing you can do but replace them. So what's the big problem
with points and the stock auto advance unit?
Is the auto-advance unit simply doomed to wear out so often, and new
ones so unavailable, that it is impractical to
keep a bike in working order with stock components? I've only put about
2,000 miles on the Commando since
I got it last December, so I am certainly inexperienced and naive.
But can't regular maintenance keep the stock
stuff working well enough?
The electronic ignitions are really reliable, they never need fiddling and give better running, but you're right, if they do go it's without warning and it's not like you can kluge them back together with a piece of bic pen, some tin foil from lunch and a piece of duct tape peeled off your panniers like you can with points. There really isn't anything wrong with points, they just require fiddling every now and then. I like electronic ignitions because I ride a lot and checking the valves every 3K miles happens often enough to annoy me, any more maintenance and I might consider getting a car.
From: Graeme Harrison
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 16:48:19 PDT
There really isn't anything wrong with points, they just require fiddling every now and then. I like electronic ignitions because I ride a lot and checking the valves every 3K miles happens often enough to annoy me, any more maintenance and I might consider getting a car.
How about a nice magneto instead? In fact, they're available for late model unit construction twins at most Britbike shops. Can even use one with battery eliminator on the street, but haven't really looked into it. Anyone care to comment/elaborate on magnetos vs points vs electronic ignitions for daily riding? I understand that the Lucas-Rita system is much better than the Boyer, but you have to pay extra for it which, in turn, has forced many owners to settle for Boyers. Hmm, forgot that the Nortons never went to unit construction, but modern magnetos should also be available for those rubberised dinosaurs.
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 16:50:40 PDT
Daniel M. Milhone writes:
>Well, it looks like the Boyer unit has died on the Commando. Any opinions
on going with another Boyer,
>(shudder) or an alternative? Maybe a Lucas-Rita(sp.?)? All suggestions,
warnings, nightmares or happy tales
>are appreciated.
Too bad the Boyer died... If you decide to replace it, British Only (I think) is having a sale and you can get a new one for about $89. I'll check the flyer that came recently and let you know for sure.
If you replace the old unit and need to dispose of it you can send it to me. Who knows, maybe 'someday' I'd have time to try to fix it.
Ralph
From: Alastair Young
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 17:18:28 -0800
>Too bad the Boyer died... If you decide to replace it, British Only
(I think) is having a sale and you can get
>a new one for about $89. I'll check the flyer that came recently and
let you know for sure.
If you replace the old unit and need to dispose of it you can send it to me. Who knows, maybe 'someday' I'd have time to try to fix it.
My points setup is home-made anyway (runs on the end of the Citroen 2CV alternator shaft, uses a Leader cam, Bantam points and yamahonduki coil) and I've been thinking for a while of adding a chunk of car distributor on there with the car electronic ignition and vacuum advance. Replacement parts cheap at any wreckers yard.
Anyone tried using car electronic ignition parts?
Al
From: Steve Bacon
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 23:42:31 -0600 (CST)
Tony writes:
>these days, and their availability from breakers, Etc, has anyone
tried using a modern car electronic ignition
>system on a bike? Anyone tried adapting a car fuel injection unit?
No but at this years North American Vincent rally there was a Black Shadow that when the lights were turned on, well, the lights came on. Brightly. As in cant-be-Lucas brightly. It turns out that the owner had hooked up an alternator system (VW maybe?) and now had tons o' juice. The horn could even be heard.
Has any brit-ironers done this sort of thing?
- Steve.
72 750 Commando / 76 Triumph T140V
From: Peter Snidal
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 28 Aug 1994, Steve Bacon wrote:
>No but at this years North American Vincent rally there was a Black
Shadow that when the lights were turned on,
>well, the lights came on. Brightly. As in cant-be-Lucas brightly.
It turns out that the owner had hooked up an
>alternator system (VW maybe?) and now had tons o' juice. The horn
could even be heard.
>
>Has any brit-ironers done this sort of thing?
Ah yes, but were Vinnies not belt-driven Miller Electrics? The old belt-drive gives one a lot of room, if one doesn't mind how ugly it looks. My favourite alternator is the Early Dodge. But it would look pretty weird strapped onto the front of a Velocette. *8-).
From: Robert D. Burget
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 17:21:03 -0700
>Too bad the Boyer died...
>If you replace the old unit and need to dispose of it you can send
it to me. Who knows, maybe 'someday'
>I'd have time to try to fix it.
I'd sure like to know what's in those things. Anyone know how to get a schematic for a Boyer or Lucas-Rita unit? Bob Burget.
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 00:31:58 EDT
Before I put in a Boyer, I was occasionally adjusting points as often as every 100 miles, and sometimes one set of points on my [admittedly worn] timing plate would slip closed, killing a cylinder and forcing me to limp home. The Lucas auto-advance is virtually unobtainable now, and in my opinion it's a poor design, like most Lucas stuff. By contrast, I've now gone approximately 7000 miles on a Boyer with no adjustments whatsoever, and the one temporary failure I suffered last summer (letter some time ago) may have been caused by extreme heat, and may not have been the Boyer at all, but the 20-something year old coils. I guess it's about time to start carrying a spare black box on long trips, but Fair Spares or some other big dealer could Fedex you one fast if a real emergency arose.
Check your Boyer carefully before you decide the black box is at fault.
They're sensitive to low voltage, bad grounds, and bad coils. Also, the
wiring that goes from the points up to the black box suffers from engine
vibration, and can frag internally.
I'm not sure I understand this points vs. magneto argument. Don't magnetos
HAVE points and condensers inside them with all the same fiddly problems?
A magneto would give a better spark than coils at high rpm, but parts for
it would be even harder to get as a Lucas auto-advance. According to Clymer's
repair manual, the Boyer was developed for the Norton factory racing team,
which could have used magnetos, so I assume the Boyer gives an even better
spark.
Lucas does not make the Lucas Rita ignition, so it's probably not made of cardboard and tin, like some of their OEM lighting components on the Commando. However, if the box is bad, you should certainly get another Boyer so you can reuse the rest of the components. Why buy all the other parts again?
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 09:19:01 BST
About three years ago, I replaced the points and auto advance on my Commando with a Boyer unit. About a month later I put the points and auto advance back. I found the vibration characteristics had changed, and the bike was vibrating further up the rpm scale than before, and therefore at a higher speed. Anyone wish to confirm this ?
Anyhow, long before the Boyer unit was an option, and when the Commando was in daily use, I would set the points every 6 months or so and forget them the rest of the time. The only thing I found that would wear out was the two springs on the auto advance, but I now believe this was probably caused by a slack cam chain.
I even remember setting the points 'static' with a bulb, and not thinking
twice about it, none of this 'strobe' nonsense.
About a year ago, In pursuit of a backfire problem, (remember the Commando
Backfire bomber) I ordered and received a complete and brand new Lucas
auto advance from Fair Spares. It cost about 40 pounds. I suspect the points
and stuff are also still available, at a cost.
While on the subject of new v old or original Technology, there's an argument that's been going round some time here on the subject. The Norton parts now being made by Andover are made with modern machinery, CNC lathes and Computer Controlled Milling machines and all that. It therefore follows that a Norton Made of 'modern' spares is built to better tolerances, and therefore to a higher standard, (none of this select your cam gears from a big box on build for the best fit). So, it also follows, so the argument goes, that if you want an authentic and original motorcycle, it must be maintained with parts made to the same standard as original. Or even, maintained with parts made at the same time as the bike itself. I don't actually subscribe to this line of thought, but in principle, I can see that there's a difference between a 'Vintage' bike, and a new bike that looks a lot like a 'Vintage' bike. Do you know, there's a rumour that there are now more Vincent's on the road than were ever built by the company.
Regards Peter Aslan aka Captain Norton.
From: Tim Keane
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:37:58 +0000 (BST)
Steve Moseley writes:
>I hear lots of stories of failed electronic ignitions, and of course
they fail without warning, and once they have
>failed, there's nothing you can do but replace them.
Selective reporting, Steve. You only hear about the failed ones because there's generally no reason to report that something is alive and well. Now that it's come up, I'll report on mine: I installed a Boyer in my JPN about 3 years and 8000 miles ago. Haven't had to touch it since and it has always worked flawlessly.
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:00:11 -0500 (EST)
>Any opinions on going with another Boyer, (shudder) or an alternative?
Maybe a Lucas-Rita(sp.?)?
>All suggestions, warnings, nightmares or happy tales are appreciated.
Another alternative is an ARD magneto. Self contained, it will work regardless of battery condition. Drawbacks are it is pricey @ $300 plus (US) and somewhat long as it mounts like RITA but is extends beyond the exhaust pipe. Vintage racers swear by (that's by not at) them.
Boy the Boyers are getting a lot of press lately. Mine has been giving me fits, but I think I have narrowed the problem to a marginal battery, early charging system, and Halogen Headlamp. Everything is fine on the open road above 4000 rpm but a few miles below that and it starts to breakup. By the way about a year and half ago a fellow in the New England Norton Owners dissected a BOYER and published the circuit in the NORTON NEWS (INOA newsletter).
Pete Serrino
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 11:30 EDT
By the way about a year and half ago a fellow in the New England Norton Owners dissected a BOYER and published the circuit in the NORTON NEWS (INOA newsletter).
The article was by Dave Comeau, in case that helps.
From: Stephen Hill
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
I put a Boyer in my Trident several years ago, on the advice of several keepers. The problem they identified with the stock arrangement is that you need to set up three sets of points exactly 120 degrees apart, which is basically a human impossibility. And if the centre cylinder points slip, which runs hot on a Trident anyway, interesting things happen like seizing. When I first put the Boyer in, it had a high speed miss and was hard to start. I returned the Box to Boyer and while they said it was good, they; replaced it with a new "improved" version which is supposed to be better, and it solved both the problems I had experienced.
One reason I don't like mechanical points on British bikes is that you
can set up the point of opening on the first set of points (thus the timing)
and the dwell (duration of opening or closing, whatever way you care to
look at it), but on the second set of points, all you can adjust is the
dwell or the timing, but not both. What you in effect do is adjust the
timing of the second (or third on a triple) set of points by compromising
on the dwell. For most purposes, this appears to be satisfactory, but it
certainly isn't ideal.
As for Rita Vs Boyer, what I didn't like about the Rita on the triple is that you use a long can shaped points cover to accommodate the extra length of the mechanism, and its butt-ugly. If this is also the case on a twin, that alone would make me avoid it. I think the price of a Rita is also about 2 to 3 times that of a Boyer.
Most of the point and advance mechanisms on the older bikes are in pretty rough shape by now. There is frequently a ton of slack in the counter weights, the stops are frequently buggered, and the springs sacked. Now you can buy springs but who knows what how the tension should be compared to stock? The cost of the mechanism new is also 2x that of the Boyer.
My approach is when it has a Boyer on it when I buy it, and it works, I leave it on. On a triple, if it has points, get replace them with a Boyer. If the mechanism seems badly worn, I put on a Boyer. If I am building a basket and it has no mechanism, I put on a Boyer. And if has points that aren't chewed and it runs well, I leave it alone. So far, the result is Boyers on 5 bikes and points on the other 4 ( all British). I also put an electronic ignition (Dyna...?) on my BMW R1001RS because the rubbing block on the points wore in about 1000 miles, and it was so difficult to adjust them. In my case, the electronic ignitions seems to be winning the contest.
From: Nancy J Caputo
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
Fair Spares sells the black box only for $72.50.
Fair Spares (408)292-6563 FAX (408)292-8514
Lou TM LUIGI
From: John Pragnell
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 10:47:49 BST
I am (still) building a JP Norton and, whilst waiting for my engine to come back from Fair Spares (well it was only promised last November), I have been buying up bits. My obvious choice was Boyer for the ignition but with all this talk on the net I am thinking again.
So on the racing outfits I use Lumenition and this has been very reliable and produces a spark that would not need fuel to ignite. The problem is it does not have any advance (unless you buy a separate box). What about The Commando auto advance unit does that cause problems and what does the advance curve look like (Curve??? or just step at 1000 revs?)? I have used the lumenition for about 6 years on an IMP outfit and for a couple of meetings on A TZ350 outfit.
Lumenition by the way uses Optical triggers and an amplifier box to
run external coils. On the imp I used the standard chopper rotor but for
the TZ made one for the end of the crank (and used 2 systems one for each
cylinder)
Comments would be appreciated.
john
From: Maloney
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 07:11:51 -0600
Holly cow, promised in November 93? and still waiting?? You have much
more patience than I could ever muster.
I am surprised at shops that still survive with that kind of service,
but as SYDs in Florida proved to me, that if you are the only one offering
the parts and service you can shit on customers and still get their business.
I sent my Ducati crankshaft in for a rebuild, promised in 4 weeks, well 5 months later and many bs excuses later my crankshaft arrives with a $50 shipping bill (over night) to ensure that I got my crank in a timely manner. The work was good, but I came unglued and had a firm but civil conversation about spending an additional $50 to hurry the crank to me was unacceptable given that the crank took 4 months longer than quoted.
I still buy from SYDs as bad as they are, because they are much better than anyone else in the states. I now make as much as I can for the Ducati as it is quicker and about the same cost. Additionally I order shims and gaskets from Domi racers, carb parts from Cosmos.
Reading the British classic motorcycle and car magazines, I get the impression that the Brits are much more patient and more tolerant of poor service that I perceive we are. Is this a correct perception???
From: Peter Snidal
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:09:00 -0800 (PST)
( Hmmmmmmm- What's that I see up on the surface of the pond? Could it be a fly? Or maybe an angler to play with................)
Just finished a nice long soak in the tub, during which, among many other things, I found myself pondering the current baiting of we who seem to be termed the Breaker Point Bigots. (or is it just Me?)
Well, I'm certainly sorry if I upset by my three or four postings regarding leaving things as they are. It would seem, however, that I have somehow done this. Newbies to the land of Britbikes and the list are, I am sure, aware by now that stock ignition systems never work, and never did, and are completely unreliable maintenance-hogs. Having ridden some dozens of motorcycles for over 40 years, and somehow never having had any negative experiences, I must beg forgiveness from the assembled sages for my incessant harping and fanaticism. Incessant harping, for those of you who missed it, means some 4 or 5 debunkings of the Boyer Myth, versus the presumably non-bigoted postings singing their praises, which must by now number in the hundreds.
However, I can see that if I'm going to be allowed to hang around in here and learn anything, I'm going to have to get back on a few good sides. So I've decided to become a Boyer Booster too. Yes, I'm joining the masses, and singing the praises of the retrofit. After all, there are many reasons for spending the 100 bucks or so. Herewith:
1) Electronics are kinder to the environment, Firing as they do on every exhaust stroke, they enhance the burning of any unburnt gases left behind after combustion. You can tell this is occurring by the cool sound of regular popping and banging in the mufflers on deceleration. I've always loved that sound! Never could understand Harley guys buying Joe Hunt mags just to get rid of it. (And I thought it was a bodge just to avoid the extra cost of doing it right with ignition for each cylinder!)
2) Electronics are very hip, modern, and "with it." As the stock Brit bike, of the '60's at least, has almost no plastic in or on it, it is sometimes hard for today's consumer to identify it with his other appliances, such as toaster, coffee maker, etc. But when I get my Boyers, my Tri will be more like my VCR, my computer, my pocket calculator and the like. It'll be fun ripping out that primitive Hornby-Train-like advance plate, with all those little screws and neoprene washers and stuff, and replacing it with a neat piece of almost-vibration-proof plastic. And once I get Mike's silicone bodge worked out, the wires probably won't fall off much or anything. And Gawd, I hate stuff that's funky. That's why I like Brit-bikes in the first place!
3) Electronics are an excellent diagnostic tool to indicate the health of the rest of the electric's. They tell you instantly, for example, if your charging system voltage drops above or below the required limits. If your charging voltage drops too much, you don't have to worry about struggling home with a bike that misses on heavy power settings, high rpm, or with the lights on. No, with electronic ignition, all that worrying is taken care of for you. When your system voltage drops below the threshold (11.4 Volts, is it?) required by Mr. Boyers, this is indicated for you immediately. Similarly, if your system somehow miraculously generates too much voltage, an indication is also instantly provided.
4) If it works, fix it. This adage has gotten many a motorcyclist off on a good start towards a career in monkey-wrenching. If the thing has the audacity to be performing satisfactorily, you should always tear off the covers and find out why. Why run a perfectly satisfactory stock ignition, if instead you have found a nice place to dump in a hundred bucks or so? After all, as everyone knows, if you can spend money on something, it will be better. This is the fundamental tenet of shoppers everywhere. And besides, it will make you an instant member of the IIW,FI club - an international organisation with tens of thousands of members, so it must be good, right?
5) They give you something to talk about on the list. Seems there's _always_ somebody with a question: which is best, Boyer or Rita, what's the best kind, how do you keep the fibreglass from cracking, how do you keep the wires from falling out, how do you know it's timed right at every conceivable rpm, what's the latest fudge for the funky coil voltage requirements, boy does mine ever start good now, blah blah blah. And when things get slow, you can always take a cheap shot at the odd voice of reason heard in the night, saying "points have their point." And ooh, those point guys are really boring, about all they ever say is "oh, 12 or 15 thou," or "I generally use a match folder."
So, as you can see, I'm now with the converted. I won't require any more prodding's and goading and Snide remarks (humph!); I'm with the programme! To hell with complicated little gimcracks and meccano like meanderings; plastic and silicon are in! Down with Meccano! Yay, Leggo! After all, what are we riding these old-fashioned things for, anyway? Nope, no more misinformation for me; I'm giving out nothing but good advice, now!
No More Pain, There's a Wire In My Brain.........
(or is it a silicon-controlled rectifier?)
"It seems Fast to Me......"
- Your Pal, Snide Pete
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 11:19 EDT
How about a nice magneto instead?
Not sure how modern magnetos work, the only mag machine I've got is the Norton, and it's still got points, and is more susceptible to water than a points/coil setup. Modern mags (hunt) are pretty expensive, though I've heard there are Czech ones available that are pretty good and cheaper. The mag conversions I've seen for modern bikes also stick off the timing cover, looking a lot like you could scrape them off if you dumped the bike.
Most of the claims I've heard for using mags has to do with good slow speed running, and from what I've seen of my B50 running with a Boyer a modern electronic ignition is probably about as good.
From: Robert D. Burget
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:56:11 -0700
From: mason@ftp.com (Latte' Jed)
... Modern mags (hunt) are pretty expensive, though I've heard there
are Czech ones available that are pretty good
and cheaper. The mag conversions I've seen for modern bikes also stick
off the timing cover, looking a lot like
you could scrape them off if you dumped the bike.
A vintage MX racer told me that the modern mags were really re-packaged TRACTOR mags, and weren't intended for high rpm use. A cheaper source of the same thing would be the places that sell to farmers. This could be bologna, since the guy was selling his own electronic ignitions to racers, but I thought I'd pass it along anyway. I may still have some info on the unit he sells, but I'd have to go look for it if anyone's interested.
Bob Burget
From: Alastair Young
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:52:12 -0800
At 11:19 AM 5/20/94 -0400, Latte' Jed wrote:
How about a nice magneto instead?.....
Not sure how modern magnetos work, the only mag machine I've got is the Norton, and it's still got points, and is more susceptible to water than a points/coil setup. Modern mags (hunt) are pretty expensive, though I've heard there are Czech ones available that are pretty good and cheaper. The mag conversions I've seen for modern bikes also stick off the timing cover, looking a lot like you could scrape them off if you dumped the bike. Most of the claims I've heard for using mags has to do with good slow speed running, and from what I've seen of my B50 running with a Boyer a modern electronic ignition is probably about as good.
What sort of dimensions are these modern mags? I used to love my mag as it would keep going regardless of the state of the generating system (which usually didn't work)
Al
From: Alastair Young
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:52:15 -0800
From: Latte' Jed
>... Modern mags (hunt) are pretty expensive, though I've heard there
are Czech ones available that
>are pretty good and cheaper. The mag conversions I've seen for modern
bikes also stick off the timing
>cover, looking a lot like you could scrape them off if you dumped
the bike.
A vintage MX racer told me that the modern mags were really re-packaged TRACTOR mags, and weren't intended for high rpm use. A cheaper source of the same thing would be the places that sell to farmers.
They should be perfect for Ariel singles then........
Al
From: David White
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 21:54:08 PDT
How about a nice magneto instead? In fact, they're available for late model unit construction twins at most Britbike shops. Can even use one with battery eliminator on the street, but haven't really looked into it. Anyone care to comment/elaborate on magnetos Vs points Vs electronic ignitions for daily riding? I understand that the Lucas-Rita system is much better than the Boyer, but you have to pay extra for it which, in turn, has forced many owners to settle for Boyers. Hmm, forgot that the Norton's never went to unit construction, but modern magnetos should also be available for those rubberised dinosaurs.
Pre-unit Triumphs come with a magneto. Nifty gadget. The ignition consists
of the magneto, points, two plug wires and plugs. Timing may be performed
with a stick and a piece of cigarette paper. Mine has an alternator and
one of those little square zener diodes, electric's just can't get any
simpler.
* No battery.
* No coils.
* No distributor.
* No regulators.
And no extra wires to hook all that stuff together. No extra connections to corrode or work loose and fewer minions of The Prince Of Darkness to fight.
David White
'47 650 Triumph Speed Twin built from spares.
Custom rigid frame 650 Triumph being built from spares. Honda 350 my girlfriend is waiting for me to fix so she can learn to ride.
From: Tony Sumner
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 09:20:13 BST
Currently in the UK you can buy Czech (or is that Slovak, nowadays) P.A.L magnetos. These are the same components fitted to speedway Jawa motors, so they should exceed the performance abilities of most British singles. I think that Nobby Clarke M/C's sell them.
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 09:22:54 -0500 (EST)
To those who asked about ARD their address is:
ARD Engineering
10628 Norwalk Blvd.
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
PH (213) 941 5642
The spring '92 edition of the NORTON NEWS has an article about installing one on Norton. The author describes two manufacturing defects (reversed coil winding and a poorly machined taper) which the company made good on. Otherwise it was highly recommended. Suggested list price $340-$380 (US).
This weekend I came closer to sorting out my new Norton motor when I discovered a bad Boyer pickup that was giving me fits. Now, I have been though the broken wire drill three times and had modified the NEW pickup by unsoldering the wires and replacing them with brass screw terminals (standoffs). It seems that I had a bad coil on the plate. After replacing the black box I had no spark whatsoever. When I checked across the pickup plate with an ohmmeter I had a reading of over 600 ohms instead of the normal 130. Replacing the NEW pickup with the one from my old motor solved the problem. So far 100 miles and no breakup.
Once again the moral is that just because it is new doesn't mean it is better.
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 16:35:01 +0200
>Pre-unit Triumphs come with a magneto. Nifty gadget. The ignition consists
of the magneto, points,
>two plug wires and plugs. Timing may be performed with a stick and
a piece of cigarette paper.
>Mine has an alternator and one of those little square zener diodes,
electric's just can't get any simpler....
Mine ('57 Speed Twin) pre-unit has alternator, points, coil.... It is
all a real pain in the a***. Parts are hard to get and expensive. I believe
the reason is that this system was only used 2 or 3 model years.
Espen
6.4 Boyer Science, (The Advance Curve).
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:36:46 +0100 (BST)
On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Gregg Kricorissian wrote:
>Regarding the Boyer system that doesn't seem to retard, I'd wager
that it is certainly a bad black box.
>Without going into the electronics theory, the black box 'senses'
the increasing speed of the rotor, and
>thus advances the spark (it has to do with the increasing EMF that
the rotating magnets induce in the stator...
>this increasing EMF triggers the spark circuitry sooner).
Can you please qualify your statement, as this confirms my theory that the Boyer does not stop advancing as RPM increases, unlike the original Lucas weights and springs affair.
The more I think about it, the more I conclude that the reason that the Boyer is timed at 5K RPM is because that where most of our bikes spend most of their time on the freeway, and not because the timings fully advanced at that point.
This may, to most list members, appear to me a rather obscure and perhaps irrelevant technical detail, but it helps to build a more complete picture of Boyer operation possible problems and diagnosis.
PS, does anyone have a copy of the internals of a Boyer out there ?
regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton).
From: Gregg Kricorissian
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 08:31:02 EDT
>Can you please qualify your statement, as this confirms my theory that
the Boyer does not stop advancing
>as RPM increases, unlike the original Lucas weights and springs affair.
From my knowledge of the Boyer's circuitry, I'm quite sure it never stops advancing: the engine runs out of RPM first. Since the pickup's EMF increases with increasing rotor/engine speed, the resulting advance just keeps on increasing. There is no clamp to limit the advance, as evidenced on the curve I've seen. (The Rita seems better in that regard).
No great harm caused to stock machines, though.
Norton News #83 published a schematic of the Boyer back in 1991.
..Gregg
From: J. David Goddard
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 07:21:44 -0300
>>the black box 'senses' the increasing speed of the rotor, and thus
advances the spark (it has to do
>>with the increasing EMF that the rotating magnets induce in the stator...
this increasing EMF triggers
>>the spark circuitry sooner).
>Can you please qualify your statement, as this confirms my theory
that the Boyer does not stop advancing
>as RPM increases, unlike the original Lucas weights and springs affair.
I suppose it may actually be true that the Boyer never actually stops advancing, I'd have no way to tell. But if it advanced the requisite 12 deg. ( at the cam) by 3000 engine RPM and thenceforth advanced only a minute amount by 6000 RPM, it would effectively accomplish the same as the mechanical advance. This appears to be the case, and very few people have any great trouble, apparently Boyers can break down as can mechanical advances, (mine did, the Lucas advance, not the Boyer) so you make a choice and live with it. If you have a pathological aversion to Boyer Ignitions, lock up your bike so those packs of midnight Boyer installers can't get to it.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:35:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Colin Bryant
On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Gregg Kricorissian wrote:
>Regarding the Boyer system that doesn't seem to retard, I'd wager
that it is certainly a bad black box.
>Without going into the electronics theory, the black box 'senses'
the increasing speed of the rotor, and thus
>advances the spark (it has to do with the increasing EMF that the
rotating magnets induce in the stator...
>this increasing EMF triggers the spark circuitry sooner).
>On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Peter Aslan wrote:
>>Can you please qualify your statement, as this confirms my theory
that the Boyer does not stop advancing as RPM
>>increases, unlike the original Lucas weights and springs affair.
>>
>>The more I think about it, the more I conclude that the reason that
the Boyer is timed at 5K RPM is because
>>that where most of our bikes spend most of their time on the freeway,
and not because the timings fully
>>advanced at that point.
>>
>>This may, to most list members, appear to me a rather obscure and
perhaps irrelevant technical detail, but it
>>helps to build a more complete picture of Boyer operation possible
problems and diagnosis.
>>PS, does anyone have a copy of the internals of a Boyer out there
?
Put a timing light on it and you'll soon see that a Boyer does indeed stop advancing just before 5000RPM. (More accurately; It begins retarding below 5000RPM).
My current Commando has no tachometer and I don't bother using an external one to time it any more. As you rev the engine with a timing light pointed at the marks, it is very clear that it does not advance into infinity.
From: Jerry Jensen
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 10:38:38 PDT
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton) wrote:
>Can you please qualify your statement, as this confirms my theory
that the Boyer does not stop advancing as
>RPM increases, unlike the original Lucas weights and springs affair.
Peter: My experience has been that the Boyer stops advancing around
5000 rpm. However using British logic that simpler is better, one would
expect to see the coils triggered by a simple voltage gate circuit triggered
by the induced voltage from the pickup coils and thus your theory. I.E.
the faster the coil spins the sooner the trigger voltage is reach in a
revolution since:
v = d(phi)/dt
Where phi is the magnetic flux through the coil.
The voltage generated in a coil by a rotating magnet is
v(t) = 2*pi*rpm*NAB*sin(2pi*rpm*t)
Where t is time and NAB is a constant depending on the number of coils and the geometry and strength of the magnetic field.
According to your theory then there is some voltage v at which the coil current is triggered (stopped). This could be sensed by a simple zener diode triggering a thyristor. The question is then at what time does this voltage v occur as a function of rpm?
Solving the above eq yields (with a few simplifications)
t(v) = atan(v/sqrt(4pi^2*K*rpm^2-v^2))/(2pi*rpm)
Where K = N^2*A^2*B^2 Plotting this function yields what looks like a decaying exponential function of t vs rpm where the t value (the time at which the spark occurs) decreases (advances) rapidly to around 4-5000 rpm and then does not advance much more above this. Check it out, I think your theory is probably right AND consistent with our observations. How about it Jack Dehait, is this right?
Jerry Jensen
USNOA 1326
From: Gregg Kricorissian
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 14:05:14 EDT
Colin,
I do not run a Boyer, so I can't really comment about what you observe
on your machine ... I'm going on an advance curve for the Boyer, as published
by Dave Comeau in Norton News #83. He tested the Boyer on a distributor
machine in order to gain some insight into the differences between the
Boyer, the Lucas auto advance/points, and the RITA.
His work shows the Boyer's advance "curve" to be a very linear relationship with engine speed. It does not display the rapid rise in ignition advance above an idle, in the manner of a mechanical advance or a RITA. Comeau's graph stops at 5000 crankshaft rpm, but the curve's slope shows no tendency toward flattening the way a mechanical advance does at speeds above a couple thousand RPM.
Could it be that Boyer updated the box with a better advance curve during the past couple of years? I would expect that their new microprocessor-controlled unit should be much better ... it could be programmed to exhibit any characteristic at all. I wonder what curve they have chosen to implement?
..Gregg
From: Colin Bryant
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Gregg Kricorissian wrote:
>Colin,
>I do not run a Boyer, so I can't really comment about what you observe
on your machine ...
>I'm going on an advance curve for the Boyer, as published by Dave
Comeau in Norton News #83.
>He tested the Boyer on a distributor machine in order to gain some
insight into the differences between
>the Boyer, the Lucas auto advance/points, and the RITA.
>His work shows the Boyer's advance "curve" to be a very linear relationship
with engine speed. It does
>not display the rapid rise in ignition advance above an idle, in the
manner of a mechanical advance or a
>RITA. Comeau's graph stops at 5000 crankshaft rpm, but the curve's
slope shows no tendency toward
>flattening the way a mechanical advance does at speeds above a couple
thousand RPM.
>My recollection of watching (very scientific ;) ) the mark advance
is the same as you describe the curve;
>very linear with RPM. I don't know how this affects engine performance.
>Could it be that Boyer updated the box with a better advance curve
during the past couple of years?
>I would expect that their new microprocessor-controlled unit should
be much better ... it could be
>programmed to exhibit any characteristic at all. I wonder what curve
they have chosen to implement?
In my household we have Boyers fitted to 3 Commandos. All three Boyers are between 5 and 11 years old. The only place that I've heard the digital Boyers mentioned is right here in Brit-Iron. I would be interested in finding out more about them.
Especially since I make part of my living servicing motorcycles (British electric's in particular).
Colin Bryant bryant
From: egofort
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 17:42:31
I made the following observations with my own Norton, Boyer, and timing light:
I plugged these numbers into a spreadsheet and did a linear regression. If I exclude 1000 rpm and 6000 rpm I get a slope of .004 degrees/rpm and a y-intercept of 9.333 degrees.1000 rpm 10 BTDC (estimated, off scale)
2000 rpm 19 BTDC
3000 rpm 24 BTDC
4000 rpm 26 BTDC
5000 rpm 30 BTDC
6000 rpm 31 BTDC
If I include all numbers I get a slope of .0035 degrees/rpm and a y-intercept of 12.5 degrees.
If you plot out the numbers you see there's a pretty straight line from 2000 to 5000 rpm. 6000 rpm falls below, 3000 is a little high. Keep in mind that I was working the throttle, timing light at the same time and trying to check the rpm and the timing mark as close to simultaneously as possible. I'm sure I could get more accurate numbers with an assistant and a electric tach.
Yesterday, I unconnected and reconnected all the Boyer leads that I could, they all seemed fine. I also pulled of the pickup plate and checked the connections to the circuit board, which also looked sound. My pickup plate came with the leads zip-tied to it with a little glob of silicone rubber to hold them in place as well. I get the impression that older Boyer plates didn't come this way and so would be more susceptible to vibration. After I reinstalled the pickup plate I re-timed the bike and retarded the ignition about one degree from where it had been.
Two nights ago one of my spark plug wires came off at the coil, so I checked both connectors and bent them a bit so they "snapped" into the coils more positively. Anyway, since I've done all this I haven't had the bike kick back once.
Let me state my understanding of how a Boyer works, mostly based on what I've read here. The spinning magnets induce an electric current in the coils on the pickup plate twice for every revolution of the camshaft. When the black box receives this signalling current it discharges the coils. My understanding of the way a points and coil ignition works is that the coils are charging constantly until the points open, at which point they discharge very quickly through the spark plug wire, arcing across the plug gap to ground. So when the Boyer gets this signal from the pickup plate, I guess it opens some kind of "switch" which causes both coils to discharge. Also, since the voltage induced the pickup coils is proportional to the speed at which they cut through the magnetic field their voltage to the Boyer increases as the rpm increases. If there is some kind of "threshold" voltage that the Boyer requires then this would be reached at a slightly earlier point as the revs increase.
I may have used voltage and current kind of interchangeably here, but does this sound about right?
I wonder if retarding the ignition one degree could make such a big difference? Could a bad connection in a spark plug wire screw up the timing? I was also getting some missing before but is seems to be running like a champ now. Maybe one of the Boyer connections was bad, although none seemed to be?
Another explanation for my bike's starting to work correctly again would be that it has feelings. I hadn't fiddled with the Boyer lately so it felt unloved and stopped working correctly until I paid it some attention. Kind of like a tantrum. A lot of the components on this bike seem like that. It's a good thing that it doesn't have electric door locks and a self-tuning radio.
From: Jerry Jensen
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 95 08:51:54 PDT
One person has posted that he thought the Boyer should never stop advancing due to the electronic trigger mechanism (spark is triggered by a set voltage from a diode). Others (myself included) have observed that the advance appears to stop at 5000 rpm as per the instructions. Since the trigger mech. is a rotating magnet/coil the voltage induced in the coil is:
v = (rpm*N*A*B/(2*pi))*SIN(rpm*t/(2*pi))
Where N is the number of turns in the coil, A,B are magnetic parameters and t is time in minutes. SIN is the trigonometric sine function. Given the Boyer geometry (N,A,B fixed) v is thus a function of t and rpm. This function does suggest increasing advance with rpm since the peak voltage (the terms before the sin function) increases with rpm. The time in the cycle at which a particular voltage (v) occurs (the trigger voltage) is:
t = 2*pi*ATAN(2*v/SQRT(pi*pi*A*A*B*B*N*N*rpm*rpm-(v*v)))/rpm
Where ATAN is the arctangent function and SQRT is square root. Multiply t by 360*rpm to get the angle (degrees) when the trigger voltage occurs. This function will show the advance curve in degrees from maximum theoretical advance. Plotting this for rpm values between 250 and 8000 shows that the curve does indeed keep advancing as the rpm increases. However, the shape of this curve (decaying exponential)shows that practically all advancing is done by 8000 rpm. If we assume that max advance is then at 8000 rpm, then the percent of the 8000 rpm advance seen at 4000,5000,and 6000 rpm are 97,98, and 99% respectively. Conclusion: Everyone is correct, the curve should theoretically keep advancing, however, the shape of the curve means that at 5000 rpm almost all of the advance has already occurred (2% of the 8000 rpm advance remains).
Jerry Jensen
USNOA 1326
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:45:20 +0100 (BST)
The more I think about it, the more I conclude that the advance curve is determined by the increasing angle of the sine wave generated by the pickup magnets. Imagine a sign wave, imagine its frequency increasing, pick a point about half way between the middle and top of the wave and notice how this moves towards the middle of the wave as the frequency increases. I find this easier to picture than the maths depicted earlier. Also, have you noticed how we, the English say maths and out American friends say math ?
I wont attempt to recreate this is ASCII Art, well, I'll give it a go.
.
.
.
. . .
*
. * .
.
. . .
+
. + .
This is a top half cycle of the voltage produced by the pickup coils, the * marks the firing voltage in the black box, as frequency increases the firing point will move towards the left as the slope of the advancing wave increases, and there you are, the ignition is advanced with an increase in frequency, or RPM. Note the + Marks the zero voltage transition of the wave.
The actual timing will depend upon the actual threshold voltage, but if this theory is correct, the advance curve will not stop when you reach 5000 Rpm, although any subsequent increase will probably be too small to measure. In addition, assuming that the threshold voltage is a function of the magnetism of the rotor, the ambient magnetic flux, quality of the connections to the black box and the tolerance of the components in the box, than I think its reasonable to assume that all Boyer advance curves are different, (slightly). I still think that setting the timing at 5K Rpm is recommended as this is where the bike will spend all its time and is the practical RPM Limit on most. (Sort of, a good rule of thumb).
BTW, you must remember this is not rocket science, this device is intended to replace a mechanical switch, (the points) and bob weights and springs, just like the governor on a steam engine.
I'm still happier with my points, and still haven't found a diagram for the Boyer, would someone fax me one ?
Regards,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton).
Louden Quill Award.
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 02:21:58 EDT
I am (still) building a JP Norton and, whilst waiting for my engine to come back from Fair Spares (well it was only promised last November), I have been buying up bits. My obvious choice was Boyer for the ignition but with all this talk on the net I am thinking again.
If I were building any Norton, I would use a Boyer [or possibly a Rita, but I'd rather use the same money to buy two Boyer so I could have a spare.] If you're building a JPN replica for collecting, I believe the real JPNs used Boyers, so this would seem most authentic. If you're building it to race, I would think you'd want something that could be replaced from the average bike dealer in the vicinity of the track, if possible, rather than some rare device, even if it's better. I've never heard of Lumenition, and however wonderful it is, you might have trouble finding a spare one at Louden at 5 am the night before a race, but Boyers are common enough that some other bike would have one you could cannibalise, or many local bike shops might have them.
Also, I think Boyers are good units -- as one contributor noted, you hear bad stuff about Boyers because very few people have problems, but they tend to bitch about them forever. Like all mass-market electronic devices, bad Boyers come down the line, but bad electronics usually show up in the first few weeks. That's why they tell you to leave new computers on, so they'll die during the 10 day return period if they're gonna die. I bought my Boyer from Fair Spares UK, and it came with a 5 year guarantee on the black box, which I did not need. I did beef up the connectors to my Boyer, however, and coated the little coils with epoxy. I posted that here before, so I won't do it again.
Norton News published comparative curves of the Boyer, Rita, and Lucas auto-advance. The last one was a mess, being an almost total advance over a very short range. Also, some experts have noted that it isn't even smooth over that range, but goes in jerks. The same article mentioned how to adjust the advance curves of Boyers and Ritas for racing by wiring resistors across the coils, or to have full advance all the time. Must be fun to Kickstart.
From: John Kula
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 21:34:56 PDT
If you're talking about the JPN replica (twin headlights; white with red and blue stripes) then it _didn't_ come with a Boyer. At least not in 1974. Now the Racer (a la Yellow Peril) could be a different story...
John Kula jakula@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca Commando 930 (MacBeth)
From: Andrew Wolf
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 12:04:57 -0600
John your really own a 930 Snorton?????
>John Kula jakula@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca Commando 930 (MacBeth)
MacBeth indeed, To be or not to be. With 930 cc on a engine designed as a 500 reliability oughta be "interesting"
Andrew Wolf
From: John Pinkham
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 13:03:44 EDT
My Commando has gone on strike. No spark on either plug when they are grounded on the head. The white wire from the ignition switch to the black box has 12 volts on it. Both coils show 2.2 ohms on the primary windings. The wires from the stator have continuity back to the black box. The stator coils are not open or shorted. If one of the ignition coils had an open secondary, there should still be spark on the opposite plug.
Question: Should there be voltage on the black lead from the black box to the coil with the ignition switch on? I found no voltage when I measured there.
Reading the Walridge Motors catalogue, I came across the statement that "Suspect Boyer kits are almost invariably malfunctioning because of other problems with the motorcycle..."
I did the Norton Tech Digest troubleshooting steps. They seem to point
at either coils or black box as culprits.
Any comments or hints ?
Thanks,
John Pinkham
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 94 12:11:42 PDT
To the poor guy with the, possibly, malfunctioning Boyer ignition....
I have found that the wire from the black box to the coils will show a switched and decaying voltage (to ground) when the engine is turned over very slowly....kind of a sawtooth wave.
If you don't see that, and you have a good 12v across the box, I would hazard that the sensors are not connected/triggering or the output driver in the box is toast. I haven't worked out a test for the sensors, but it looks like it would behove me to poke at a working set while I have the chance.....
MS
From: Bob Cram
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 16:03:23 +0000
Canadian Biker magazine recently ran an article on Boyer and Lucas Rita ignitions for British bikes in its "English Speaking" column. The article said that one problem that sometimes crops up with these ignition systems is damage due to vibration, since all electronic components can be affected by vibration. To combat the effect of vibration it recommended wrapping the black box in sponge or some similar material with electrician's tape wound around that before installing the box.
From: John Pinkham
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 94 16:24:37 EDT
Reading the Walridge Motors catalogue, I came across the statement that
"Suspect Boyer kits are almost invariably malfunctioning because of
other problems with the motorcycle..."
The replacement Boyer black box and stator provide healthy spark once
again. Fair Spares U.S.A. cheerfully provided the replacements under warranty.
Any comments or hints ?
Several folks suggested a simple coil test. Just hook the coil primary to the battery and ground, then watch the plug gap as the primary circuit is opened. Should observe a spark. Guess this is rather obvious, but not mentioned in the factory manual or Clymer's.
John Pinkham
From: Nancy J Caputo
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 15:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
A poster from MA (sorry, forgot your name) asked for the Boyer instruction sheet which comes with the unit and I was able to find only the front side, which I mailed to him. I believe this is the reverse side of the document.
Simple tests on the Boyer Bransden MKIII units for British motorcycles:
1. Switching the ignition on should produce a steady current through
the ignition coils except for the Norton unit. This remains off until triggered
by turning the engine or disconnecting the yellow/black or white/black
wires.
No current through the coils could be caused by:
a.) No power to the white wire. (Battery voltage low, less than 8 volts.)
b). No earth to red wire
c.) Poor connectors. Tinning gone black or very corroded.
d.) Coils or link wire open circuit
e.) Black coil wire shorting to earth (Black box very hot)
f.) Coil connected to black wire shorting inside from Primary winding
to case (very common on Norton machines (Black box very hot).
2. Wires can rub through to frame, check by removing unit and look round all the transistor box wires.
3. All battery cells should be in good order as one poor cell will produce a high resistance supply to the ignition. This can make the ignition spark on switching lights or horn and in some cases may produce a continuous run of sparks.
4. Switching off ignition should produce a spark at all spark plugs. The Norton unit would require triggering by turning the engine or disconnecting yellow/black or white/black wires. (Firing on one cylinder only, one coil shorting to earth could be either coil).
5. The transistor box can be tested in circuit by disconnecting the yellow/black and white/black wires and with the ignition on they can be touched together and broken, this should produce a spark at the plugs. If not, the box is faulty.
Cheers,
Lou TM LUIGI
From: John Kula
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 94 15:33:12 PDT
>one problem that sometimes crops up with these ignition systems is
damage to vibration, since all electronic
>components can be affected by vibration. it recommended wrapping the
black box in sponge.
I'm not confident that this would work. All the electronic bits are held in a matrix of epoxy inside that black box. My own sense is that _heat_ is a bigger issue -- epoxy isn't the greatest conductor of heat and black boxes that aren't exposed to some air stream must surely heat up. Wrapping the box in foam or some other vibration-insulating material is just going to exacerbate the heat build-up problem.
From: Bob Cram
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 09:09:46 +0000
Since I'd hate to be the cause of anyone's Boyer ignition overheating, I thought I'd add send along some information that contradicts something I sent out last week. At that time, in a discussion re Boyers, I passed on some information from an article I had just read that recommended wrapping your Boyer in sponge and electrician's tape to shelter it from vibration. Somebody responded they were going to do exactly that, and somebody else responded that this was a bad idea because Boyers were susceptible to overheating.
Anyway, I stumbled across another tip re Boyers on the weekend in Vintage Bike, which specifically recommended AGAINST wrapping them in anything to prevent vibration and stating that they will overheat if you do that. Since that piece of advice came from John Healy, who knows more than most of us ever will about British bikes and Boyers, I think it is pretty definite confirmation that overheating is a more serious concern than vibration.
From: Bob Cram
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 10:14:02 +0000
Oh, oh. Looks like my second message re wrapping Boyers in sponge didn't
get to you in time. Sorry about that. Does this mean that when we read
things and pass the advice on to others, we are going to have to start
offering disclaimers. Actually, it is unlikely it would overheat that quickly
from being wrapped, so it probably was defective (he says trying to convince
himself).
One thing I was told when I bought my Boyer (disclaimer, disclaimer--somebody
else told me this) a couple of years ago was that if your Zener Diode is
defective, you can easily burn out the black box.
From: John Pinkham
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 10:09:26 EDT
Last week I replaced the dead Boyer electronic ignition with a nice new warranty unit. After connecting all the wires up I decided to see if I had any spark. Both sparkplugs had nice spark when I grounded them to the cylinder head. Went to bed that night with a contented feeling that the Commando would be ready for the road for the weekend. Saturday morning I put the plugs in, reattached the petrol tank and hooked up the timing light. After numerous kicks, I came to the conclusion that the static timing must be incorrect, even though I had checked it, I thought. Yes, it was correct. More carb tickling, more kicking.
Out with the plugs. They're still sparking. There's gas. Couple of more kicks. Hey what's that weird smell like burning plastic. Oh hell, what's that wisp of white smoke coming from under the petrol tank! Quick turn off the ignition, pull the fuse, rip off the tank. What do you know, that brand new Boyer black box has its end melted.
What did I do wrong, says I. Checked all the connections. They're per diagram. I didn't reverse the battery did I? No, it's positive earth, as God intended. Interesting that the 30 amp fuse didn't blow, even though the black box looks like it could have burst into flames in a few more seconds.
Monday, I called up Boyer and explained the circumstances of the meltdown. After running me through some questions, a chap named Andre said that the black box must have been defective.
One thing that I did do was to wrap the black box in some sponge before strapping it down. This could have contributed to the overheating somewhat, however the engine never started, and the meltdown happened after about 20 kicks. Won't use the sponge next time.
So I've put the points back on. Lots of fiddling pulling paper through the points to determine static timing. At last she's running.
Sir John, The Boyer Slayer.
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 18:30:39 +0200
From: Espen Olsen
Oh, oh. Looks like my second message re wrapping Boyers in sponge didn't
get to you in time......
Very likely.... The charging voltage will get much higher than the electronics
can tolerate if the zeners are gone.....
btw, are my posts coming in duplicate to you guys?
Espen
From: John Pinkham
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 94 10:12:49 EDT
After frying my warranty replacement Boyer electronic ignition black box I decided to put ye olde points back in pending receipt of yet another black box. So after getting all the bits and pieces back on, the right cylinder wouldn't fire. The right coil showed a short between the primary winding and the coil case. This confused me, since I had checked this previously several times. The difference was that the coil had been off the bike before. This time it was in its clamp. As I loosened the clamp the short disappeared.
The Tech Digest notes that a shorted coil will cause the Boyer box to get very hot. It also notes that overtightened coil clamps can short out the coil.
Feeling foolishly optimistic, I called Cliff, The Sandy Bandit, the Northwest's equivalent of an Ethiopian Warlord, to ask the market price of coils. His price was only thrice that of his competitor, "Fairly Honest Dick" and 4 times that of RGM .
By the way, the Lucas points I bought were made in the East of England, The far east of England: Lucas KK, 7-5 Iwamotocho, 1- Chome, Chiyoda Ku, Tokyo, England, to be more precise.
John.Pinkham
From: Robin Tuluie
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 94 11:21:35 -0400
>wouldn't fire. The right coil showed a short between the primary winding
and the coil case.
>This confused me, since I had checked this previously several times.
The difference was that the
>coil had been off the bike before. This time it was in its clamp.
Yep, tightening the clamp too much will cause the housing to buckle and eventually the coil will short out.
>His price was only thrice that of his competitor, "Fairly Honest...
You can buy a used coil and be fairly certain that it works if there are no sign of buckling (no ridge along the clamp seam) and the resistances check out. I personally like the blue VW super coils (I don't remember their primary resistance, but can go & measure it if you like) The VW coils (made by Bosch) give a hell of a spark and seem to last long (4 or 5 years on my racebike now). However, they're bigger than the stock units and you need to fabricate a mount for them (you can get them with a clamp). When I bought them they were cheaper than Lord Lucas's best. Hope this helps,
Rob
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:05:31 -0500
Dave Allen Said:
>Grounding out the coils? Do they mean grounding the primary side at
the plugs or the secondary side?
>Does the amps increase when this happens? What size fuse? Comments?
Dave, I can only speculate here on what is meant by grounding but it
is possible to short out some of the primary and secondary windings by
over tightening the clamps. The Boyer is designed to drive a total resistance
of 2.4 to 5 ohms. The 6 volt Lucas coils are typically about 1.8 ohms/each
giving a total resistance of 3.6 ohms when connected in series. If part
of the primary is shorted to ground, you could easily drop below the 2.4
ohm minimum and burn out the Boyer.
The calculation for the proper fuse would be:
13.5 volts / 2.4 ohms = ~6 amps. A normal fast blow fuse is probably indicated here.
Cheers,
Pete Serrino
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 94 01:59:08 EDT
>His price was only thrice that of his competitor, "Fairly Honest Dick" and 4 times that of RGM.
This is about the fourth time I've seen a reference to "RGM" in this list, with remarks its good prices. Could somebody tell me what/where this place is? I've never heard of it, and don't even know what country it's in.
Also, for what it's worth, there's a good price on bike coils in J.C. Whitney new catalogue (No. 566K, p.238). It's described as follows:
IGNITION COILS For Motorcycles. Replaces damaged or faulty coils perfectly. Delivers a hot, smooth spark at all speeds for better all 'round performance and increased plug and point life. Special construction and windings reduce vibration damage -- the prime cause of motorcycle coil failure. With metal mounting bracket.
Coil for all motorcycles with one coil per cylinder. Seamless bakelite case. 02XX4255U -- 6 volt; $13.98; 02XX4256B -- 12 volt.
They also make a 2-headed coil [chromed steel case] (12 volt only) 01XX3085X -- $27.98.
I'd be interested in hearing about it if anyone owns/buys the single-headed coil; on the whole, I've had good luck with JCW stuff, but I did notice, on the very same page, the flashing spark plug caps we've recently heard so much about.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Chuck Stringer
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 1994 08:53:45 -0500 (EST)
Mike Taglieri Writes:
>This is about the fourth time I've seen a reference to "RGM" in this
list, with remarks its good prices.
>Could somebody tell me what/where this place is? I've never heard
of it, and don't even know what
>country it's in.
The only reference I have is that British Bike Connection is a distributor for them. I take it they're a manufacturer rather than a parts house.
Also, for what it's worth, there's a good price on bike coils in J.C.
Whitney new catalogue (No. 566K, p.238).
JC Whitney is a great example of 'you get what you pay for'. If the
price is incredibly cheap, you can count on the quality being so, too.
I have to admit that I've ordered from the a time or two (mostly VW stuff)
and some of their items are pretty good quality, but when they're not,
they're abysmally so.
I'd be interested in hearing about it if anyone owns/buys the single-headed coil; on the whole, I've had good luck with JCW stuff, but I did notice, on the very same page, the flashing spark plug caps we've recently heard so much about.
Hey now, I keep one of those in my tool kit and it's the handiest diagnosis
tool around. Hell of a lot easier than pulling a plug to check spark and
can help you see if it's missing while it's running. Makes a good spark
gap, too.
-Chuck
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 11:44:34 PDT
As a single data point, I got a pair of the 6v JC Whitney coils to use with a Boyer on a T140V. They are just a tad larger in diameter and, let's call it, 1cm longer than the Lucas coils but they fit and work fine.
Only had them running for a few weeks so the longevity jury is still out.....
If anyone knows the secret to this I would be eternally grateful: The coil terminals are marked + and - but which is which on our old fashioned positive ground machines? Or does it even matter, especially when they are wired in series?
MS
From: MCENTERPR
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:31:56 -0500
The problem with coils for Boyer ignitions is resistance across the primary sides. The Boyer kit will tolerate approximately 4.5 Ohms resistance across the primary leads. Stock Lucas 17M12 coils have 3.5 ohms resistance, consequently when wired in series as is required for a Boyer, the total resistance is 7.0 ohms, out of range for the unit. When we sell Boyers, we include two six volt coils, resistance 1.7 Ohms each, for a total of 3.4 ohms on a twin cylinder bike. The other solution is a dual lead American brand coil for electronic ignition, which has a resistance of 3 ohms, the problem here being the size and shape is considerably different. Incidentally, the warrantee (at least from those, like us, that offer warrantees on Boyers) is void if they have been used in a situation which is outside of the tolerances listed.
Marshall
6.9 Boyer Use Across Different Machines.
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 06:36:34 -0700
There seems to be no difference between a 'Triumph' Twin Boyer and a
'Norton' Boyer except for the labels and instructions. Maybe some wire
lengths. I have a 'Triumph' Boyer in my Norton and it works just fine.
Is the Enfield a 180 degree twin? If so, it's a good bet that a Norton/Triumph
Boyer will work just fine. You might want to verify the advance curve...
Norton, Triumph and Enfield twins were all 360 degree twins from the
factory. That means the pistons rise and fall together and fire on alternate
revolutions of the crankshaft.
Nearly all the Brit twins of that age came stock with the same timing curve: about 10 degrees advance at idle, full advance by 2500rpm to approximately 35-38 degrees. Aside from the magneto fired models, they nearly all took the exact same Lucas point cam and advancer and points, with minor changes to the baseplate to fit a particular model. It's pretty easy to adapt electronic units across the board from that info.
Godfrey DiGiorgi
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 94 02:49:54 EDT
>There seems to be no difference between a 'Triumph' Twin Boyer and
a 'Norton' Boyer except for
>the labels and instructions. Maybe some wire lengths. I have a 'Triumph'
Boyer in my Norton and it
>works just fine.
I could be wrong, because I have no Triumph engine handy, but it appears that the Triumph cam and Norton cam rotate in opposite directions. I think I read somewhere that having the power pulses come in the wrong sequence can affect the advance curve, so it's possible the pickup units are not the same. Does anybody know more about this? Obviously, if I owned a Boyer for another bike I'd certainly try it, but I wouldn't BUY one without checking it out first with Boyer.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
P.S. to Peter Bell: Yes, I would love to see parts books online. In fact, that way we might REALLY find out how many types of Boyer components there are . . .
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 94 7:11:07 PDT
Mike Taglieri@aol.com writes:
>There seems to be no difference between a 'Triumph' Twin Boyer and
a 'Norton' Boyer except for
>the labels and instructions. Maybe some wire lengths. I have a 'Triumph'
Boyer in my Norton and it
>works just fine...
When I ordered my Norton Boyer the local parts house ordered a Triumph
one instead. I asked them call Boyer to make sure it would be OK on a Norton.
They said that Boyer said it was OK, but I have no idea if they actually
called Boyer or not.
The Boyer instructions show how to set the timing for either cam rotation.
Ralph
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 94 07:41:48 -0700
My 76 T140 Boyer claims a 28 deg advance, if memory serves, and I think the Commando is up in the 30's like you say. We should just get a selection and run them on a bench someplace. In our copious free time of course.
The points advancers were almost all 28 degree advance units. Set idle timing static to 10 deg BTDC, total advance at 2500 rpm goes to 38 degrees. Some were a little less (like the ET Magneto advancers) which have only a 10-15 degree range. That might be what the Boyer package is telling you.
29-38 degrees of full advance is about right for all hemi-head motors, with the exact figure dependent upon compression ratio, peak rpm capability, bore size, and combustion chamber shape/port effectiveness.
Godfrey DiGiorgi
From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 1994 16:20:16 +0000
You must be getting sick about hearing about my Bonneville and its richness problems, but I've just heard a new theory I'd like to bounce off the brit-ironers. I called British Cycle Supply (BCS) in Nova Scotia to see if they'd had complaints about Campbell mufflers causing rich running. Mark at BCS told me they'd never had such complaints, but they'd heard lots of rich running stories. He took me through a series of intelligent questions in about 60 seconds touching on all the key points of advice I've received from brit-iron this summer.
Then he asked if I was using a Boyer. I am. And 12 volt coils. I am. According to him (and I remember some sort of discussion of this on the list recently) Boyers were designed for Norton's with 6 volt coils, so when used on Triumphs, the wiring was simply changed to have the coils run in series at 6 volts each. (I admit to electric's being my weak point so if I get some of this wrong, it's probably me and not Mark at BCS.) He said they had had instances where this caused rich running in Triumphs, presumably because a coil running at half its capacity just didn't work the way it should. Other times it seemed to work fine. He couldn't promise me that 6 volt coils would fix it, but did say he'd seen the change to 6 volt fix rich running several times.
Now, 6 volt Lucas coils are $40 each. Before I spend that kind of money I'd like to know if what he's saying seems reasonable. By the way, he also mentioned that resistance plug wires with Boyers have caused problems and recommends non-resistor plug wires.
Bob Cram
72 Bonneville
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 09:50:56 +0200
Bob Cram Wrote:
>Now, 6 volt Lucas coils are $40 each. Before I spend that kind of
money I'd like to know if what he's
>saying seems reasonable. By the way, he also mentioned that resistance
plug wires with Boyers have
>caused problems and recommends non-resistor plug wires.
Sounds most reasonable to me. I run 12V now, with a 6V Lucas coil. No problems, absolutely GREAT spark, no rich running. These oil-filled coils are very sturdy and obviously has no problems running on twice the voltage they were designed for. A coil running at lower voltage than nominal (as yours with a Boyer) will of course give a inferior spark which could cause rich-running like problems.
Espen
6.11 Boyers, Component Redundancy, The Aircraft Approach
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 02:11:35 -0500
I've been studying flying for some time now, and one thing that interest me is how aeroplane engines have two completely independent magneto systems supplying spark to the cylinders, all of which are double-plugged, so one can fail completely without affecting operability.
My Norton used to be somewhat similar, in that the Lucas ignition supplied independent spark to each cylinder, enabling you to limp home on one pot for most problems.
Having limped home this way numerous times (sometimes more than once in a single week!), I would never want to get rid of my Boyer to go back to the Lucas system. However, it would be nice to rig up a Boyer (or TWO Boyers, since the black boxes are so tiny) to provide separate power to each cylinder. That would give us the vastly superior Boyer reliability, plus the ability to get home unless the 2 boxes failed simultaneously, an inconceivable event.
Has anybody given this any thought, or figured out a way to do it?
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:26:54 +0000 (GMT)
As far as I can remember, the Boyer Pickup, the bit on the end of the camshaft, has a two pronged rotor spinning besides a single pickup coil. This causes the Boyer to fire when either cylinder is ready, the other one fires also but as its on the exhaust stroke it doesn't matter. Remember, the coils are wired in series, they must fire together.
What you are suggesting, for a Commando at least, would require a new pickup arrangement where there were two coils and a rotor with one prong, the two pickup coils would be placed either side of the Fiberglas PCB, and arranged so each coil was completely independent. In turn they would connect to two separate Boyer black boxes, which would connect to two separate Coils, which would have to be replaced with 12v type.
So, yes it would be possible, and not all that difficult. Biggest problem I can see is getting the pickup coils on the PCB exactly 180 Degrees apart. I suppose they could be arranged on separate PCB's somehow which would allow the compulsive fiddlers an opportunity to adjust the Boyer. So it could be a complete solution.
The 'only' downer, power consumption would doubled to the ignition circuit. Would the Lucas Alternator take the strain ?
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 6:59:49 PST
My guess is that this would be fairly complicated - not quite the direction to go when one is looking for reliability and getting home. Aeroplanes need the high reliability to be able to keep flying while looking for a suitable landing spot. On a bike you usually can just pull over if it cuts out.
Since the Boyer is rather unlikely to fail and you're intending to put out the cash to have a spare, why not just carry the spare Boyer with you. Except for having to stop and install the spare if the main unit fails, it would be about the same as having two in parallel...
Ralph
From: MikeTnyc
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 01:37:14 EDT
I've been riding many weekends on my '72 Commando, and some alarming problems have cropped up that I haven't seen before. Next Saturday I plan to skip riding for wrenching -- any tips by then would be especially welcome:
1. Recently when I start the bike, it starts no harder than usual, but then pumps TREMENDOUS amounts of blue smoke out of the left muffler [only] for 30 seconds or more. Then when I start riding, the bike coughs and wheezes from 2000 to 3000 rpm, acting as if one cylinder is clogged / one plug is fouled, etc. Within 15 minutes or so, the problem goes, and does not recur that day, but since I garage the bike in the middle of Manhattan, fighting this bucking, kicking and stalling engine for 15 minutes is a dangerous situation, seriously distracting me from the road while cars zoom around me. I went about 140 miles round-trip to the beach last Saturday, and the problem occurred only at the start of the trip out (after sitting about 2 weeks) but not at all when started for the return trip (after sitting 2 1/2 to 3 hours). Therefore, the engine has to sit longer than a few hours for this to happen.
As some may recall, I installed J.C. Whitney mufflers a couple of months ago, but then rode a 400 mile weekend without any problem, plus several shorter trips since then, so this is probably not it. Could I have a damaged/eaten inlet valve seal on one side? Or even a valve guide coming loose? (New valves, [cast-iron] guides & seals about 7000 miles ago). I'm baffled why this should happen all at once, then keep going away when the engine warms up, with otherwise excellent running except in stop-and-go traffic [see below].
2. Air cooled bikes are obviously not at their best in stop-and-go traffic, but it's never been this bad before: the engine overheats severely unless it's moving along, and traffic is inevitable getting out or into New York. Saturday night, after a relatively calm return trip, I went through one of NYC's tunnels and back to the garage, stopping at some [but not a great number] of lights. Although it was 9pm and not very hot, the engine was so overheated by the time I shut it off that I could't rest my hand on the primary, or even on the gearbox! Recently, the kickstart lever has been kicking back sometimes when I start. Could this be overly advanced timing?
This could explain both kickback and overheating, but for a Boyer ignition to suddenly advance the timing without reason seems ridiculous.
3. Although not that much worse than before, the clutch likewise overheats severely in stop-and-go traffic, even though it and the drive chains are in good shape, and have proper slack. Saturday, I had to endure about 2 miles uphill of bumper-to-bumper traffic, and it became progressively more difficult to find neutral, although I NEVER hold the clutch more than necessary, and use ATF in the primary for heat-resistance.
I was planning to take several LONG trips this summer and fall, but I can't trust Raul until I track down these glitches. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate [feeling out-of-sorts]
From: GNBII
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 13:00:10 EDT
Norton Commando.
Mike, my bet is just some oil holding on the left side when parked. Bike has been on sidestand, no? Should be. Centerstand is not advised for longterm as it affects the isolastics. Then again, could be rings or valves, but I doubt it if it stops after the initial startup. Just a pool of oil up there.
The kicking back with the Boyer is most likely a weak battery. So far as I know most all electronic ignitions go to full advance on a dead battery. In this condition, you may find yourself looking for a medic the way they kick back. Sounds yours is just down a bit. Wire the bike with quick releases on the battery and pull it out when you park, take it home, and put it on a trickle charger. No biggie.
The Commando clutch doesn't like crawling. End of discussion. I never take mine downtown even at Daytona. To much pain in the ass. Leave EARLY.
You got no real problems here, I think. Mostly your battery and an old overworked clutch design.
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 23:25:23 EDT
In case anybody remembers my earlier post, my Norton's extremely hot running and lousy idle, as well as the "kicking back" when I'd kickstart, apparently were happening because the adjustment of my Boyer had moved and the spark was too advanced. The magetic rotor on the end of the camshaft apparently slipped in some fashion, even though I torqued the bolt down hard when I put it on. I always had doubts about this rotor, because its taper is slightly different than the one in the camshaft, and they make very poor contact (once wrote Boyer about this and got "they're all like that, sir" as an excuse). At any rate, the system went 6000 miles before it got so bad it needed adjustment. Now, it's torqued down hard AND fastened with Locktite [I am not recommending this for rotors whose tapers are not defective]. I guess electronic ignition spoils a person. I used to fiddle with the points as often as every 100 miles or so, and knew all the symptoms. This new ignition has lasted so long without adjustment that I'd forgotten it was possible for timing to be wrong.
I also adjusted the cam chain, and wonder if Norton is too conservative with its service guidelines: more than 6000 miles after the last adjustment, it barely needed to be touched. I was negligent to wait that long, but 3000 may be too pessimistic. I think I'll pass on that automatic chain tensioner for awhile.
Finally, an interesting tidbit:
***WARNING*** On some Boyer stators [i.e., the pickup plate
w/ coils] if you retard the ignition all the way, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR ELECTRICALLY
LIVE SOLDER JOINTS ON THE BACK OF THE STATOR TO COME IN CONTACT WITH THE
METAL OF THE TIMING COVER. If this should be evident, file the inside
of the points housing slightly where the joints would contact, or adjust
the rotor so
extreme retarding of the stator is unnecessary.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate