From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 95 16:01:34 +0200
>So, time for playing 64 questions: What happened? Is it a common problem
>that these liners won't stick to the tank, and peel off even before
fuel is
>put in the tank? What went wrong? How do you get the rest of the lining
>out? (Though you can only see one side of the tank through the filler
>hole, I'll bet its all in the same condition inside.) How do you prevent
>that from happening again?
I have no personal experience with tank liners beacause of horror stories being told by people on the net. Some points:
1: No welder will even touch the tank if it's been lined. This is for me no.1 reason not to use tank liners. You never know if you'll need to weld the tank some time in the future. The reason is that minor amounts of petrol will be trapped under the lining. This is impossible to remove and imagine the effect upon welding.
2: There is no reason not to use the old-fashioned brit-iron way of derusting. This involves using an acidic solution to remove the rust. I enclose the info given to me some years back below. This will remove the rust and stabilize the surface, preventing it from rusting in the foreseeable future. The acid treatment is OK, but even better is Wrangl solution, used here in this lab (corrosion lab) to remove oxides from steel:
1000 ml HCl ,specific gravity: 1.19
20 g Sb2O3 Antimony Oxide
50 g SnCl4 Stannous Chloride
Trow a buch of old nuts and bolts into the tank, pour in the solution, and shake the tank vigorously for 1-25 min at 20-25 C.
The data is taken from ASTM, treatment designation C.3.1.
Rinse out with *lots* of water, alternatively one second treatment with 2 spoons baking soda in water. The chemicals are not toxic in diluted quantities and may be aquired at the chemist, but do not drink the stuff.
standard precations when working with acids is needed, as it is when using KREEM and other treatments too.
Put in gasoline as soon as possible after cleaning and go for a ride
From: bade
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:15:37 GMT
What ever you do don't use KREEM, I know many of you have used it with great success, but let me tell you the consensus of 5 mechanics I talked with indicated that it was not the prefered method.
The prefered method is.
1. Throw in a bunch of bolts (tie them to string to make it easier
to remove them) and shake them arround. This will flake off the big scales....
2. After the tank has been aired out completely for a couple of days. Fill it up with a 50% solution of muriatic (sp??) acid (mild hydrocloric). This will etch the rust and neutralize the rusting action (this is common practice in the autobody industry to neutralize rust). Do this in a well ventilated area cause it stinks to high heaven. Let that sit for about 10 min and then drain it. Then fill up the tank with a saturated solution of Baking Soda and water to neutralize the acid.
3. Drain the previous step after about 10 min and then proceed to rinse out the tank. Next use compressed air and blow the inside of the tank dry (I used both compressed air and one of those leaf blowers since if fit over the filler hole and forced a whole lot of air in).
4. Fill it about half way with gas, slosh it arround and dump the gas.
5. Put everything back on (you did remember to remove the petcocks and rubber gaskets????) and filler up.
I just completed this on my wife's R65 which had been KREEM'ed and the etch step had not been done correctly.
To prevent future problems. Throw in some dry gas periodicly and if you are going to let the bike sit, drain the tank and let it sit with the cap open to dry out. The water in the gas settles to the bottom of the tank where the rusting will occur.
The R65, now shows no signs of rust in the fuel filters (I'm running them just to be safe) and the screens on the petcocks are clean, where they were plugged up big time.
Espen
From: Charles Falco
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 07:51:47 -0700 (MST)
The subject of rusty tanks comes up from time to time, as well as the recommendation to use one of the Kreem-like products to coat the inside of the tank. I have the feeling there are a lot of tanks out there with plasticy coatings covering scaley messes. It seems to me there are several parts to the problem.
1) How to get rid of the rust;
2) How to fix pinholes, if any, that have been eaten into the tank by the rust;
3) What to do with the tank after all the rust has been removed.
I'm left with the impression that some people might be doing a pretty
superficial job on #1, then jumping to step #4: "sweep the dirt under the
rug, and hope mom doesn't notice." Well, mom usually does notice, in which
case you end up getting in bigger trouble later for taking the easy way
out earlier. I had a very bad experience with magic tank coatings 20 years
ago when I lived in Chicago. Some previous owner had put the stuff in the
tank of my '60 Mercedes, and it would flake off from time to time and totally
clog the fuel filter. Normally at 5pm in February when I was somewhere
convenient, like on the Stevenson Expressway during a blizzard. For all
practical purposes, those tank coatings are non-reversible--once you put
it in, you can't change your mind and
remove it.
So, how to do a "proper" job from the start? Dropping a bunch of nuts and bolts in the tank and shaking *sounds* good, until you actually face the prospect of agitating a 4 gallon tank part-full of steel for the length of time needed to do the job. Besides, there still would be seams and corners full of rust, that went untouched by the jostling bolts. Various acids, including hydrochloric (aka muriatic) and phosphoric, do a nice job attacking rust. They also attack steel, paint, skin, etc, so have serious limitations as far as we're concerned.
The ideal would be an environmentally-friendly, non-toxic, safe-for-paint-and-humans, liquid solution that selectively dissolved all the rust, while leaving the bare metal totally untouched. Sounds too good to be true, though, doesn't it? Well, about a year ago I saw an (expensive) solution advertised, which claimed all those attributes. Knowing full well I was being duped, I bought a 2-1/2 gallon jug to try anyway. Damn if the stuff didn't work. Not only work, but work great. I had just bought a '66 Bultaco Metralla whose tank was a disaster. Actually, the paint on the outside was pretty good--it was the inside that was caked with huge flakes of rust. I poured the solution in, propped the tank up to so the liquid would completely fill one end of it, and gave it 24 hours. The next day it appeared to have done some good, but hadn't taken away all the rust. At that point I assumed I had been taken, as expected, but decided to try a bit longer. The instructions said although it worked at room temperature, it worked a lot faster at higher temperatures. I stuck an immersion heater in the filler neck, and cranked the temp up to ~1550 oF overnight. The rust wa gone the next day. I mean, totally gone. And, although I had slopped the stuff onto the paint (and my pants), there wasn't a trace of damage. By now the solution smelled like rust, but the instructions said to keep using it until it stopped working. I tipped the tank the other direction, and finished derusting it.
Since no pinholes appeared, I did *not* fill it with Kreem. Had pinholes appeared, I would have brazed them. I did waft a heavy mist of spray lubricant in, to coat the now-bare metal.
Based on my experience with the Bultaco, I bought more of the stuff so I could do my Vincent's (considerably larger) tank. This tank was a real mess, needing de-rusting inside and out. This time I used a wet/dry shop vacuum cleaner to hold everything. Again, the solution completely removed the rust. Since then I've used it to de-rust the inside of my Vincent's oil tank and on many smaller pieces, always with complete success. However, in spite of the instructions, it doesn't really want to work very well at room temperature. Perhaps if left to soak it for a week it would be fine. But, I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you had a heater to keep things cooking at ~150 oF or more for at least 12 hours.
Had I not experimented with this magic fluid myself, I would not have believed it. Nor would I have believed a magazine review of the stuff. So, I wouldn't blame you in the least for not believing me. But, if you do, their ads say they also will do the derusting for you, so you don't have to buy the expensive solution. I have no idea what that service costs, nor how they treat your parts.
By the way, I have the strong impression the stuff they're selling for a lot of money costs them a few ppennies a gallon. If the ide of a company making many thousands of % profit offends you, you would be better of avoiding them. However, that magic solution has saved me countless hours, and "fixed" rust damage that I know of no other way to deal with.
Oh, the name of the company? I almost forgot.
Rusteco
7745 Alabama, Unit 1
Canoga Park, CA 91304
818/348-1113
Charles Falco
From: stephen
Date: Mon, 16 May 94 15:45:21 CDT
How about another horror story? No? Well tough,
As you know there was much fanfare when the rebuilt head was put back on my Norton. What you may not have known about was the neato fiberglass racing tank I had on it (which I also had painted this winter, rather than the Interstate tank). "My what a nifty looking cafe racer I've got. Now to save up for rear sets!" quoth I.
News flash: when aquiring fiberglass tanks make sure that they are treated and sealed. If you don't know, then go out and buy the stuff and do it!
I of course had no idea that this should be done.
I'd ridden it about 10 miles at the most, when on Sunday the 10th I tried to start it. Doesn't want to! After much messing around, oh oh - gas is shooting out the left carb on the compression stroke (and you though YOUR Amals were bad %^)! Poke poke poke, yep. Bent valve. Argh.
It seems either the gas or the lead additive contained something which started disolving the resin in the tank. When this burned it left behind a nice coating, which caused the new intake valve to stick a little open and get hit by the piston.
Once the head was off it was obvious things were bad. Black goop dripped out the exhaust, and everything was a nice icky brown. This with less than 10 mi. on the clock since rebuild.
To make a long story short I've gotten the head cleaned up / repaired, put it back together in a marathon Friday night session (sleep, who needs it, I wanna go on the NOC ride Sunday!) and it runs a whole lot better.
Of course, now I have to put up with everyone asking me what happened to that cool tank I had?
So warning, if you get a fiberglass tank, treat it. After all that time, money and fustration I found out the kits only cost around 15$
- Steve
72 Twice Baked 750 Commando
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 01:37:02 EDT
>I have gone looking for a used replacement tail light housing for a
>Commando ( the rounder smaller style of the 1969-73 or so
>models) and every one I have found was cracked and broken and
>looked like some crazed child had attacked it with a hammer and
>then thrown it under the bus. They are poorly made, of course,
>with enormous quantities of resin and filler, and very little glass
>strand, probably using a chopper gun.
I have one of these beauties, and it sure is crude, but I'm especially interested in hearing more about "they are poorly made, of course . . . " because '72 Interstates like my bike also have a gigantic fiberglass tank, full of flammable liquid and sitting right between my legs at 90 mph. Are these, likewise, made "with enormous quantities of resin and filler, and very little glass strand"? Was Norton notorious for crappy fiberglass work? I know fiberglass tanks were ultimately banned for safety reasons, but I hadn't heard that someone's horrific inferno on a Norton was the catalyst for the legislation.
Does anyone know anything about Norton glass-tank manufacture, or have any suggestions for the owners of fiberglass tanks? I love 250 miles between fill-ups, so a dinky tank is not an option.
[I'd also love to hear SHILL's methods for fixing crazed fiberglass tail light housings. Since tail light housings don't blow up and kill people, that can wait a bit].
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: stephen
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 9:31:01 CDT
> Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate writes:
> Does anyone know anything about Norton glass-tank manufacture, or
have any
> suggestions for the owners of fiberglass tanks? I love 250 miles
between
I don't know about Norton fiberglas but I'll repeat what happened to me several weeks ago with my aftermarket fiberglass tank.
It seems that in order to boost octane and save money a lot of gas stations are putting many nasty chemicals (ex: Toluene) in their gas. These are also used as "detergents" etc. with the claim of cleaning things up. Well they do!
Some bad gas started to disolve the inside of my tank, which when burned carmellized the inside of my engine. As I was about 20 miles into a head rebuild everything was pretty tight in there. The new "finish" stuck a valve which was then hit by a piston and bent. So, had to take the head off of the engine again & get a new valve put in (not fun).
At first people I talked to were surprised, but then another person I met had the same problem, but because his engine was pretty clapped out, the only immediate effect was sticking carbs. Also some guy who used to race dragsters or something said that that wasn't uncommon on some race cars where the tank wasn't coated properly (alcohol fuel I assume).
But then wonder of wonders: Two days after I got my new head back from Erschels Friendly Enfield Service someone brought in a Rickman Enfield with power problems, sticking carbs, and smoking. You guessed it. Fibreglass tank with the same problem.
My suggestion: talk to a place that makes fiberglass tanks and find out what coating they would suggest for "todays mmodern fuel". I appologise for such a long rant, but after all that extra work and money I'm shy of fiberglass.
Steve
'72 Commando
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 1994 10:59:51 -0500 (EST)
I have seen some aftermarket fastback tanks bubble out. The owner lives in Illinois and suspected the alcohol that was prevelent in that state. He was able to get a second tank from the manufacturerr but the same thing happened Knock wood, I have used all types of gas in my stock Fastback tank including gas from Illinois and other "corn" states which stated they contained alcohol, with no ill effects. Maybe the years of "varnish" buildup is protecting it??? I think all new gasoline storage tanks installed today are fibreglass though.
Pete
'71 Fastback
From: Chuck Kichline
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 11:40:09 CDT
> little glass strand"? Was Norton notorious for crappy fiberglass work?
I
> know fiberglass tanks were ultimately banned for safety reasons,
but I hadn't
> heard that someone's horrific inferno on a Norton was the catalyst
for the
> legislation.
A friend of mine was riding his then-new mid 70's Duck 750 on the twisties when it jumped out from under him. While he was walking over to pick it up, it exploded in classic James Bond film style. The glass tank had cracked and dumped several gallons all over the road. His replacement Duck had a steel tank.
I think some makers even covered steel with fiberglass, then plastic covers to keep the style up. Might be a "solution" to use older (or partially disolved) tanks - hide a smaller steel model inside the shell.
From: John Kula
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 10:04:14 PDT
The factory original Norton Fastback fibreglas was almost as good as Chobham armour: thick and solidly welded together. In contrast, just about every piece of sh*t fibreglas I've seen was pattern made, not original. And it's _atrocious_! Later on (e.g., the JPN fibreglas) the original factory stuff wasn't quite as thick, but the finished quality was, if anything, a bit better. I've _never_ had _any_ problems with any of my Nortons when the fibreglas was original, and that includes Fastbacks, Roadsters, Interstates and my JPN.
John Kula Commando 930 (MacBeth)