Captain Norton's Notes, Volume 2, Section 27

27.1 Additives

From: Richard Neill Dabney
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 14:43:21 -0700

>That happens to me all the time here in Houston (the land of heat).
>I don't think that it matters if there's methanol in the gas or not.
>Gasoline has a rather low boiling point and on a really hot day the
>pressure can build up in your gas tank. Don't sweat it.

Ethanol = ethyl alcohol = Ever Clear = 200 proof

Added as a oxygenator to gasoline, it helps reduce CO emissions. I think it attacks neoprene, but I'm not sure.

Methanol = methyl alcohol = B.A.S.

Not added to any pump gasoline as far as I know, as it's slightly corrosive. We boil it with water to make H2 for our fuel cell.

************================================************
Richard Neill Dabney
Controls Engineer
GM/DOE Fuel Cell Project Los Alamos National Laboratory
************================================************

From: Robin Tuluie
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 94 23:31:47 -0400

>My only personal experience with alcohol fuel was racing a Norton
>special using a home-made (by Jim Schmidt) carburetor system ...
>..using methanol...

I remember, I rode the monster for Ken at the Sears Point AMA National in 1988 or 89. On the last lap, the tank sprung a huge leak along the bottom seam and poured methanol all over my leg. You can't see methanol flames, so i was wondering if I had started burning yet, while still trying to finish the race and hold down 5th place. As soon as I got past the checkered flag, I pulled over to the side, yanked the tank off with methanol flying everywhere, got a good lungfull of the stuff, nearly threw up, and, after a while, realized that I was *very lucky* to get away with this. As far as i can tell the damage to my nervous system manifests itself in an uncontrollable urge to keep racing Nortons. Other than that I'm fine. Really.

Cheers,
R.T.

From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 14:50:14 +0000

For those people yesterday that were looking for information on fuel additives as mandated by the EPA and their effect on carbon deposits on our bikes, I scanned my saved messages and put together some of the ones related to fuel below. However, I could not find the most informative one of all, which referred to an article in Vintage Bike and provided a summary of what that article said about this whole issue. It was extremely useful. I probably didn't keep it because I have the actual article at home. Does the person who originally sent that still have it and could they resend it? (To Peter Serrino: for some reason I think it might have been you, but I could be very wrong about that.) Anyway, here are the old messages

=========

[This one originally sent by me on August 11, 1994]

I got my copy of Vintage Bike yesterday and noticed in there that complaints about inexplicable cases of rich running have been cropping all over this year, and experienced Brit bike mechanics have been stumped by them, so much so that they are asking people to write in to provide any insights they might have. I found this interesting since there has been a lot of discussion of the same thing on brit-iron. A theory expressed in Vintage Bike is that recent changes to fuel to meet EPA emissions standards may be the culprit. Another is that it is after market, non-Amal, needle jets with poor quality control.

Anyway, I'm still having rich running problems myself with my 72 T120R, although advice from some of you has helped. After checking the ignition low and high tension systems over, I found a very loose ground. Tightening it helped. I also adjusted my float bowl settings as spelled out in the 1973 Triumph Technical Bulletin (and they were set too high on both carbs), and that helped somewhat too. Nonetheless, I have not completely cured the problem, just made it less bothersome.

Anyway, since I live in Canada, the EPA theory seems to me to be doubtful because our fuel standards are not the same as in the USA. Also, my needle jets are Amal.

From: Pete Serrino
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 12:11:57 -0500 (EST)

Bob,
I am putting in my vote for a change in fuel formulation as the main culprit. I am confused as well. Recently I took my Norton to a local track and ran a few tanks of leaded racing fuel. One reason for the existence of this stuff is to provide racers with a stable formulation so as to rule out one of the variables when they are tuning their motors. The companies producing this talk about holding to strict standards and not changing.

Any way, I thought my motor was finally broken in as for the first time it idled great. This lasted for about one more tankful back on the street. Yesterday I refilled a nearly empty tank with pump gas and the same idling problems appeared (ranging and dying out). Checking with a colortune shows intermittent misfiring (orange glow).

What confuses me is the fact that the "EPA" fuel is supposed to have alcahol or MTBE added which is an oxygenator and make the mixture leaner. I am theorizing that it is affecting the vaporization at low velocities and producing larger-harder to ignite droplets. I'll be interested to hear other theories.

Pete
==========

From: Bemben
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:06:11 -0400

Saw this in rec.moto and what I relate seems to have a certain amount of credence (before you guys start flaming away that I'm just blowing smoke):

Subject: Re: TRIUMPH AMAL MK2 CARBY
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
References: <46.5469.488@bbs.fullcoll.edu>
Distribution: world

David Dow (david_dow@bbs.fullcoll.edu) wrote:
: References: <Y195326.940911.C@ozemail.com.au>
: SUBJECT: Triumph Amal Mk2 carby hesitation question

>I have a 1982 Triumph Bonneville. The bike accelerates ok from
>standing still or any time that the throttle has been open. If the
>throttle has been closed whith the engine being driven by the bike
>and the throttle is reopened, then the engine hesitates and takes
>a few seconds to recover. I have looked inside the carbys ( Amal
>Mk2s ) and determined that the jets and needle settings agree with
>the manual. It does not make any difference whether one or both
>petrol taps are on. I have adjusted the throttle stop and idle mixture
>screws and the slides to lift at the same time. Any suggestions how to
>get rid of the hesitation?

Y'know I've been having a similar problem over the past couple of months and last night I was discussing this with a friend that does a lot of wrenching on Triumphs...His story was strange to say the least but having seen this here and on other lists more than a little too frequently this Summer I think that it may have more than a little credibility:

He said that back in the early Spring the US Gov't. directed that all gasoline be formulated a different way such that it burned cleaner. This was mandated by the EPA I believe he said. Well, the oil companies complied and nothing further seems to have been said of the issue.

HOWEVER - it has been noticed that it effects MOTORCYCLES; particularly older ones much in the way you are describing. There is hesitation that is noticed initially, you'll notice that at highway speeds you'll get a rythmic stumble, like something is not quite right, and the bike will eventually run VERY RICH and might just cease to function at all (like mine did a couple of weeks ago). The fix that he's been using for other Brit. bikesters is to install a jet needle that's one stage leaner and use a plug that's one stage hotter.

We pulled the plugs outa my Bonneville last night (they were brand new and only had about 45 miles on them) and they were totally fouled. They weren't just black, they were really sooty. He said that this problem usually manifests itself within about 30-50 miles of using this new gasoline (and thinking back on it, both times I've had the engine seeminly "go away" on me this Summer, it occurred right within that range of miles). I"m having him check on a couple of other thing for me but he is gonna try the leaner jet needles to see if this clears up the problem. I'll let y'all kow what I find out from this little scenario.

Rich

The street giveth and the street taketh away - Catmother
*********************************************************************

From: RobCMcD
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 15:22:14 -0500

As Spring is approaching here in the Northeast, how is everyone finding the new fuel (oxygenated winter stuff) supplies working out?

I am in the process of putting smaller jets and bigger neddles in my T140D.

Right now, with a Jardine muffler (non-standard replacement for the cigar OEM) and two-into-ones, I have AMAL MkIIs, with a #15 idler jet, #106 neddle jet, 2C3 neddle and 200 main jet. WIth this, I cannot lean the idle out enough. That is, with the idle air adjuster all the way out, the engine still does not rev up (it slows down as I screw it in, indicating it too rich). Next, I am trying a #105 neddle jet (original spec).

Has anyone recently been running something similar and gotten a nice brown spark plug at idle and mid range speeds?

Rob,
79 Triumph Special.

From: Michael Schippling
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 10:34:29 PST

Since I'm on the Digest version, and miss entire days now and then due to stupid work schedules, this may have already been beaten to death. But I'll do it just to be perverse anyway.....

The new gas additives required in many U.S. urban locales (methanol mostly) that "oxigenate" gasolines for "cleaner" burning in colder months do three mostly undesireable things for our poor engines:

1. Burn leaner due to the lower energy output of the additives compared to real dinosaur leavings. trans: less power/buck.
2. Burn colder due to the lower combustion temp of alcohols.
3. Carry more water with them, due to alcohol disolving H2O.

The net effect is two fold:

A. A leaner mixture, perhaps requiring raising needles and other horrid machinations to get the right fuel/air mix. Since our poor brit-carbs and engines seem to be VERY sensitive to mixtures (vis Max, my jap truck, who seems to burn anything but water at any mixture).

B. A colder flame from the lower temp and water vapor. This is what makes a leaner mixture seem to, counter-intuitively, foul the plugs. The fix is hotter spark plugs. But you gotta watch your engine cooling: keep an eye on the color of your exhaust headers if they go bluer further down you're probably too hot.

Now, I wish I could rememeber which way the hotter plug numbers go.... I offer a .25 probability that higher numbers are hotter. Right?

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27.2 Avgas

From: Gary Beck
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 07:42:07 -0800 (PST)

I have been using avgas in my 71 Bonneville since I got it two years ago and no ill effects. Also in the Trackmaster, but it has been mostly apart since it needed *minor repairs* when I got it so it has been mostly apart. I believe avgas is the only motor fuel made with lead and that probably wont last very long unless us flyers, with our massive political clout can prevail. I think nobody has figured out how to make 100 octane fuel with all the other requirements for avgas, without the lead. Its availability in other parts of the world is already severely limited. Im in the flying business so have a ready supply sitting in a truck in the same shop where the bikes live. Happy pinking to the rest of you rotters.

Gary

Trackmaster Triumph
'71 Bonneville

From: Latte' Jed
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 94 14:17 EST

>I have been using avgas in my 71 Bonneville since I got
> it two years ago and no ill effects.
> Happy pinking to the rest of you rotters.

I've run unleaded in every bike I've owned and never had a problem. The worst valve problems I've ever seen from unleaded are with early 70's BMW twins. The bike that least cared about the lack of lead is my Greeves.

Unless your engine's knackered or you're running some amazingly high compression ratio (my 10.5:1 morini 3 1/2 Sport runs on sunoco 94) I can't imagine why avgas would be any better than pump gas. If your engine's knackered then stop torturing the poor thing and get a valve job.

From: Dale Williams
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 14:47:00 -0600 (CST)

> >I have been using avgas in my 71 Bonneville since I got
> > it two years ago and no ill effects.
> > Happy pinking to the rest of you rotters.
>
> I can't imagine why avgas would be any better than pump gas. If your
> engine's knackered then stop torturing the poor thing and get a valve
> job.

AVgas has a couple of other benefits (other than being 10 ft away from the original author's bikes): AVgas is supposed to be more "stable" and not degrade as quickly as mogas. The blue dye is also great for finding fuel leaks ;).

Oh, yeah. Old bikes run great on it.

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27.3 Fuel Bad Gas

From: Eric Rogge
Date: 5 Jan 1995 08:44:59 U

Bad Gas ; )

Well, I now understand how bad gas ; ) can affect old British twins. A couple of months ago, I filled my Norton up at a local no-name gas station which I use for my truck. I hadn't been able to ride the bike more than once every other week since then so the gas pretty much sat in the tank. Last weekend, it just wouldn't run. It ran like s***, which was unusual. It would backfire at idle rich indicator) and miss upon acceleration (lean indicator) at the same time! The plugs were amazingly black with carbon. I thought that it might be a case of varnish in the pilot circuits because that had been a problem before. I soaked the carbs in cleaner and reassembled to no avail. I checked the needles and jets for wear, but aside from a tiny bit of varnish, they looked good. After this drill, I occured to me that maybe, just maybe, the gas had destablized and the reminants in the tank were basically diesel fuel and tar. So, gas can in hand, it was off to Union 76 for some 92 octane. Yep, with the new gas (and new plugs), the bike ran great, just like it used to.

So the moral to this story is: If your engine runs progressively poorer over a period of months and you aren't riding the bike much and your plugs are fouled big time, try new gas before you get out the surgery tools. Also, forget gas from no-name gas stations if you have vintage brit-iron.

Cheers!
Eric Rogge

From: Eric Rogge
Date: 5 Jan 1995 11:20:35 U

Reply to: RE>>Bad Gas ; )
<< interesting and factual analysis from Andrew deleted>>

Andrew,
You've caught me making a broad unsubstantiated claim, mea culpa. Let me put a sharper point on my conclusions. Assuming that increased water content was the cause of my problem, your knowledge can be made to match my experience in two ways:

1) This station from which I bought my gas has poor location, and so I believe their volume is lower than the 76 Union station. I believe this because when I pull up to the pump there's rarely more than one other customer there. Their gas may therefore have more water content because it sits longer in their tanks. I should have said, go to high-traffic gas stations, (which based upon my personal experience, are name brand stations).

2) The no-name station was pumping gas which had about 3% methenol. Now it's my understanding that methonal in gas allows water absorbtion. Perhaps, this would cause more water content.

But, honestly, I don't know whether water content was the cause of the poor engine performance or not. Actually, I had assumed it was a problem associated more with decomposition of the gas itself. It's my understanding that the more volitale components will evaporate if gas is left standing. I felt that this matched the symptom of sooty plugs because the longer hydrocarbons would vaporize less readily, requiring richer mixtures to initiate combustion. Upon ignition the incremental energy would vaporize the excess un-vaporized gas, explaining the soot on the plugs.

Finally, I hear that there are various additives which the name-brands add. Could some of these be stabilizers, which in my case would allow the gas to still be usable after sitting?

Regards,
Eric

From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 12:07:25 +0000

Eric Rogge writes:

> If your engine runs progressively poorer over a period
> of months and you aren't riding the bike much and your
> plugs are fouled big time, try new gas before you get
> out the surgery tools. Also, forget gas from no-name gas
> stations if you have vintage brit-iron.

========

Certainly good advice at any time. However, it may be a bit more complicated than that these days because of the changes in fuel additives recently designed to reduce emissions. There was some discussion of this in brit-iron a couple of months ago after a lot of research on it was published in Vintage Bike, the newsletter of the Triumph International Owners Club. I don't have the articles with me, but here is what I remember.

Part way through 1994, gas station owners (in certain parts of the United States but not nation wide) were required to put certain additives into their fuel to reduce emissions. I believe many of these were alcohol-based additives such as methanol. In any case, the combined effect of the additives was to increase carbon build-up on some vehicles, typically older, carburated vehicles. Vehicles with fuel injection did not suffer. If I remember correctly, effective in January 1995, other additives will be required that will counter the carbon buildup problem.

I had a problem like this for the whole summer of 1994, and I live in Canada. I tried many different stations, many different plugs, and troubleshooting of all varieties on the bike to find the problem. I''m still trying to find out I Canada took similar steps with fuel additives. In any case, by the end of the riding season, I had not solved my problems, and I can only hope that by spring, things will be better.

From: Your Name Here
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 11:29:45 -0700

eric

"forget gas if not from a brand name station"

Back in college in my engine course, we were assigned to get the 'BEST' gas possible as determined by its water content and its octane rating.

Being at an engine school, we could measure the water content, and we had a research engine to determine octane.

Guess what? The stuff we got from the very cheapest gas station had the LOWEST water content and the Closest Octane to the advertized rating. The very high price and 'brand name stations" fared considerably worse.

Why??? Well the cheapie stations pumped between 10 to 100 x the volume of the high price spread. The gas was 'fresher' less time wallowing in transit and tanks, and that tanks all have water due to condensation, with full tanks the condensation is less, and with high volumes more gas per drop of water.

Because human nature is what it is, more volume is moved through cheap stations. As I have argued before about oil, Gas is Gas. Cheapie gas is pretty much the same as brand name gas, except for a few cleansing additives and mass quanities of marketing expense.

My dad used to tell me to be careful NOT to buy gas just after the stations tanks are filled, told me that this stirred up water and crap. Give it a couple of hours to settle.

just my $0.02 worth (where is the cents sign when you need it, progress indeed!)

Andrew Wolf
47 Indian Chief
67 Triumph Bonneville
70 Ducati 350 SCR
74 Ducati 750 GT
65 MGB

From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:31:23 CST

> > If your engine runs progressively poorer over a period
> > of months and you aren't riding the bike much and your
> > plugs are fouled big time, try new gas before you get
> > out the surgery tools. Also, forget gas from no-name gas
> > stations if you have vintage brit-iron.
>

Bad Gas is a very common problem in Canada over the winter.

After winter storage the first thing I do is smell the gas. It usually has a rotten egg-like smell if it has destabilized. Oddly enough the only time this has ever happened to me is the one year I used a commercial gas stabilizer.

Rob Brotherston '69 Triumph Bonniville (Fido)
Elec. Tech. ET&T '86 Suzuki LS650 Savage (Gone)

The sum of the intelligence on the planet is constant, The population is growing.

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27.4 Detecting Ethonol.

From: Bob Cram
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 11:58:01 +0000

On my most recent fill-up I decided to experiment with a 94 octane fuel sold here as "environmentally friendly" that is 10% ethanol. The engine ran the same as ever, but I had an interesting experience when I went to start the bike after it had been sitting for awhile on a hot day. When I plunked my weight down on the seat, a hiss came from the vent hole in the gas cap. I then shook the bike back and forth to slosh the gas around, which generated lots more hiss. I opened the gas cap to peer inside. To my surprise, I found that all the paint on the tank under the gas cap had gone soft, just like happens to paint on wood when you put paint stripper on it. Cosmetically, this isn't critical because not too many people go around peering under my gas cap. But the bare spots could turn to rust, and flakes of the paint could drop into the tank.

I understand that in parts of the US all gas is now sold with some ethanol. Has anybody had similar experiences with gas that has some ethanol in it?

From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 00:18:46 -0500

I've occasionally seen threads here discussing whether alcohol [particularly ethanol] can harm gas tanks or engine rubber parts. So far, however, I haven't seen an easy way to test for it in gas, but just found a wonderful one in the book "Airplane Ownership" by Ronald Wanttaja (TAB, '95). Here's what you do:

1. Get a small, clear container with a tight stopper or lid. A graduated cylinder or test tube would be ideal, but any kind of bottle should work. (A thumb could conceivably be used as the lid, but it would be tedious).

2. Fill the container about 1/10 full of water, and mark the level [ a graduated cylinder, it's already marked, so just remember the line].

3. Fill the container the rest of the way with gasoline, which will form a layer on top of the water, then stopper tightly, and shake for at least 3 minutes.

4. Allow the container to sit for 5 minutes, and see whether the level of water is still at the line. If there seems to be more water than before, the gas contains alcohol.

This test relies on the fact that alcohol dissolves in water and will do so more readily than in gasoline, but gasoline and water will not dissolve in one another. When you shake the water with the gasoline, the alcohol dissolves in the water and returns with it to the bottom, where it raises the apparent level of the water.

I'm printing this test not because I'm particularly concerned about alcohol in gasoline, but I know some people here are, and this is an easy way to find out.

Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate

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27.5 Fuel Octane

From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 01:13:35 EDT

While it's true that the actual octane of gasoline went down since the '70's, it's also true that changes in the methods of testing have made the drop seem worse than it is.

There are two types of tests, "research octane" and "motor octane," and it is enough to know that the research octane test gives a higher figure with the same gas. American practice is to average the two numbers [i.e., octane=(R+M)/2] for the figures on our gas pumps. English practice in the '70's [and maybe now, for all I know] was to use the higher research octane number only.

Therefore, Enghish bike manuals always quoted a higher figure than the bike really needed. The US Norton Owners Association's "Tech Digest" has a chart comparing the figures, which I'll summarize here:

Research 100 97 95 94
(R+M)/2 95.1 9.2 90.3 89.4

For my own bike, a 750 Combat Commando reduced to 9:1 from its original 10:1, I adjusted the timing 'till I got pinging on high-octane unleaded only under extreme circumstances, when I probably should be shifting down anyway. The highest generally available unleaded I've found is Sunoco 94, which works well; I tried a purported 93 on my last vacation that caused FAR more ping -- I suspect a certain amount of puffery in the octane numbers of some companies, but Sunoco seems pretty consistent.

************

The June issue of Classic Bike has an article on a beautiful Commando [yeah, I know that's redundant -- what other kind is there?] owned by Steven Moose of Jefferson City, Missouri. He's made numerous modifications to it, and "[t]he final drive chain is a US-made modern type, with nickel-plated links and recessed O-rings to seal in lubricant."

Therefore, at least one O-ring chain does fit. Happy hunting if anybody know what this one is. Also, just for my information, O-ring chains have to be lubricated anyway, so why are they better, or are they?

Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate

From: Chuck Kichline
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 08:40:36 CDT

Both my Lightnings (68 & 71) seem to thrive on "91" octane fuel. However, my Rocket3 (70) has been super-fussy. It would never idle smoothly on the off-brand gas, and I had to add a double cylinder base gasket to keep it from detonating
badly on "premium" fuel.

From: Michael Schippling
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 94 12:55:16 PDT

A few more 2-centers....

I got the Lund re-sleave treatment for Bonny (76 Bonneville, just rebuilt). Replaced all the jets and needles at the same time. She turned right over and idled at about 1K from off the block. Of course there are _other_ problems now.....She's pretty hard to start, I think she's not getting enough gas into the cylinders while I'm kicking.

Edward (74 Commando) has dual Amal MkII's and has never exhibited any carburation problems. He starts and idles nicely, and goes 0-60 in second gear....He does take a few miles to warm up to the point that he really wants to be out and about though.

Modern gas is problematic. By adding all those alcohols and other crap they have effectively reduced the calorie output per dollar, which should result in LEANER running. At least the junk they sell in urban CA in the winter does....Taking a sea level bike up into the mountains will (due to lower oxygen pressure) cause richer running, so maybe the two would balance out....

An interesting side note, logical if you think about it: The higher the octane the more it resists ignition (to prevent pre-ignition at high compression). This means that starting is harder. And probably high altitude running tends to be less efficient...less oxygen plus lower tendency to combine with oxygen means less fuel burned.

From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 94 13:55:16 PDT

That happens to me all the time here in Houston (the land of heat). I don't think that it matters if there's methanol in the gas or not. Gasoline has a rather low boiling point and on a really hot day the pressure can build up in your gas tank. Don't sweat it.

LTR

'79 Bonneville Speical
'72 Tiger

From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 09:42:06 +0000

Anyway, since I live in Canada, the EPA theory seems to me to be doubtful because our fuel standards are not the same as in the USA. Also, my needle jets are Amal.

From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 00:14:24 -0400

>Can anyone tell me the best fuel to use in a 73 Trident? The
>owner's manual says 97 octane minimum. The Shell garage
>manager near my home says that number was based on the old UK
>octane rating system and that the US rated 93/94 octane fuels
>today are good enough.

A chart on this subject is in the Norton Tech Digest: English [Research] octane Modern US [R+M/2]

            100     95.1
            97      92.2
            95      90.3
            94      89.4

Therefore, the Shell guy is right, and you may even be able to go lower than 92 if you retard the spark a bit.

>Does unleaded fuel damage our valves?

I've used it in my '72 Commando (usually, Sunoco 94 octane) since leaded gas disappeared. No problems, and I'd expect that Triumph seats of the same era are similar in material. The most obvious symptom of valve seat recession [i.e., valve trouble on unleaded gas] is that your valves would need to be adjusted much more often after you change to unleaded. Check your valve adjustment frequently after you change gas, and see what happens. (P.S. In my opinion, it's impractical to run on leaded aviation gas, unless perhaps you use your bike to commute to your plane. Even my humongous Norton Interstate tank only has about a 40-mile range on reserve, so would I have to carry aviation maps with me so I'd never be out of range of an airport? Hard enough finding 94 octane in East Podunk, let alone an airport . . . If my bike absolutely needed lead, I'd probably use the various lead-additives you see in auto-parts stores. (Be aware that these are poisonous, however).

>What is the current thinking on synthetic oils verses non-synthetic?

Even in rec.motorcycles, where impassioned debate still rages on this subject, everyone seems to agree that synthetic is better. The controversy is whether it's better ENOUGH to justify the price. I think it is, and recently started using Mobil 1 in my engine and primary case, although it didn't work out very well in the gearbox, so I've gone back to gear oil there.

Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate

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27.6 Oxegenated

From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 01:13:35 EDT

Rick Cording writes:
>
>Was talking to good friend (and master Velo mechanic) Frank Forster
>who mentioned that here in California we need to re-jet in winter
>due to a state decision to "oxygenate petrol to reduce pollutants due
>to winter inversion layer(s)". Frank says he read about this last
>year and sites examples of a couple of friends whose bikes seized
>during the last 2 winters from running too rich. Have to admit this
>is over my head, but I'm passing it on for what its worth. Suggested
>remedy: pick needle up 1 notch and increase main jet size.

=========

Vintage Bike has also recently had an extensive discussion on the changes to and additives to fuel in the past year and planned for the future. Some of this made its way on to Brit-Iron about three or four weeks ago.

In any case, the main message of all of it is that the constant changes being made to fuel sold at the gas pump, all aimed at reducing emissions, are likely to plague all classic vehicle owners. Newer vehicles, especially those with fuel injection, seem to handle all these changes without much problem. Classic carburated vehicles, on the other hand, may face all sorts of problems ranging from plug fouling to overheating and lean running depending on what change is introduced where. Moreover, different regions of individual countries, and different countries are all subject to different procedures, which does not make it easy to keep track of what is happening. In general, however, this is something we can all try to keep an eye on and keep one another informed.

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27.7 Fuel Selection

From: Matthew Sodano
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 13:23:35 EST

As far as the great cheapgas vs. Namegas debate---

2 years ago here in N.J. the gas stations were ordered to sell gas with MBTE in it. The stuff was an ether-smelling red chemical that made both my bike and car hard to start in cold weather. By the time April came around and they were allowed to sell normal gas again, my carburetors had red stains on them and in them from this junk. There were also a lot of complaints about MBTE as far as health goes, ranging from respiratory trouble to headaches, etc. This year, however, the MBTE enhanced(?) gas does not seem to be as nasty as last time, and actually burns a bit better than the normal swill they pass off as pump gas these days. I agree that for Britbike owners, name brand gas is the way to go, since they usually have a more consistent product coming out of their refineries, and the unleaded premiums generally have a higher octane then nonames.

But of course if we could turn back the clock 15 years or so, when we could get 98 octane leaded premium wouldn't that be nice?

Does anyone know of a place in N.J. where I can get leaded premium?
---------
Matt Sodano 78 Bonneville
73 Tiger (pieces)

From: GNBII
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 13:48:01 -0500

For what it is worth, those of you who live near auto racing tracks SHOULD be able to find a gas station that sells racing fuels, generally Sunoco and Union76 stations, around here anyway.

It will be expensive, but if in your drunkeness you decided that your Café Commando could indeed relieve that other guy of the pink slip for his Goof2, it might well be worth it.

Oh, yeah. Keep him to a red light to red light run and the Commando will indeed take him. I know this for a fact.

Bewley/Atlanta

From: Christopher Ball
Fri, 6 Jan 1995 14:34:13 -0500

I can't recall if this came up on the car or the bike net so I'll repeat it in short form. In Canada all the classic machinery was filling up at Shell stations because they put a lot of time and money into telling us all about the lead substitute that they were putting in their gas.

Well, last fall they QUIETLY stopped adding it in and needless to say they did NOT come to all the nice club meetings to tell us THAT ! I have spoken, as have several others, with senior Shell chemical people and they are not very proud of the way head office handled it either.

So, if you ride in Canada you can gas up anywhere you like and bring your own additives of choice if needed and/or desired.
-------------
BTW, I'm more rooted in the car side of this issue. What's the bike wisdom on unleaded gas in the pre-74 era machines? What you use to protect the valves or have all the old bikes had top ends done already?

Your loyal newbie-ness,

Christopher Ball triumph@io.org Toronto, Ont. (416) 751-8300 Work
75 Spitfire // 64 Healey 3000 Mk. III // 59 TR3A //66 BSA Thunderbolt
--------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andrew M. Boardman
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 15:02:08 EST

Does anyone know of a place in N.J. where I can get leaded premium?

Any small airport is usually happy to sell "100LL", which is short for 100 octane low-lead, which is actually really heavy on the lead. (Although not nearly so much as what it replaced, thus "low-lead".)

It's been pointed out to me (albeit in far ruder terms) that an introduction is in order. Well, then, my name is andrew, I currently live in New Jersey (east coast USA), and the only whole two-wheeled vehicles in my garage are decidedly boring. There're also lots of old oily parts in there from which something more interesting may or may not emerge in a month or three, but no promisess. (Currently, I visit Latte Jed when I need a fix of proper motos.)

Incidentally, I also need an R90.

cheers,
andrew

From: Dale Williams
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 18:36:25 -0500 (CDT)

On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, nicholsn wrote:

>(1) Can anyone tell me the best fuel to use in a 73 Trident?
>The owners manual says 97 octane minimum. The Shell garage
>manager near my home says that number was based on the old UK
>octane rating system and that the US rated 93/94 octane fuels
>today are good enough.

For older and vintage cycles, I'd suggest aviation 100LL. My tiger thrives on 100LL aviation gasoline, which is really a leaded fuel. 100LL is available at essentially any airport serving piston powered airplanes.

Many little airports have a self service or card service system for pumping your own. I pay 1.50 per gallon.

Obviously, if you run your cycle alot, this may not be practical, particularly if your nearest general aviation airport is not very close. I'm also not sure how every airport FBO operator feels about pumping cycle gas :), but many like to sell fuel, even if it goes to a vintage vehicle collector. YMMV.

Of course, having a pilot's license might help :)

Dale
76 Triumph TR7V Tiger 750
95 Triumph Trident 900
76 AA5B Grumman American Tiger

From: R. N. Dabney
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 22:47:34 -0600

>On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, nicholsn wrote:
>
>>(1) Can anyone tell me the best fuel to use in a 73 Trident?
>>The owners manual says 97 octane minimum. The Shell garage
>>manager near my home says that number was based on the old UK
>>octane rating system and that the US rated 93/94 octane fuels
>>today are good enough.
>
>For older and vintage cycles, I'd suggest aviation 100LL. My
>tiger thrives on 100LL aviation gasoline, which is really a leaded
>fuel. 100LL is available at essentially any airport serving
>piston powered airplanes.

I've tried to run 100LL in my MG Midget but the leadfouling is too troublesome. 100LL has gobs of lead!! If you do this get some Alcor TCP; ask for Tom Cat Piss at the aircraft supply store. It will help the lead ball up and not attach itself to the plugs and combustion chamber. I don't think anyone will question you about buying fuel as long as it's not dispensed into the bike tank. Take a gas can to the airport and try this experiment close to home.

BTW. I use to run Jet-A in the kerosene heater I used to heat my hangar. :-)

Later,
Richard
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Richard Neill Dabney
GM/DOE Fuel Cell Project
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Los Alamos, New Mexico
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: John Bria
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 11:09:56 PST

>>On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, nicholsn wrote:
>>
>>> (1) Can anyone tell me the best fuel to use in a 73 Trident?
>>>The owners manual says 97 octane minimum. The Shell garage
>>>manager near my home says that number was based on the old UK
>>>octane rating system and that the US rated 93/94 octane fuels
>>>today are good enough.
>>
>>For older and vintage cycles, I'd suggest aviation 100LL. My tiger
>>thrives on 100LL aviation gasoline, which is really a leaded fuel. 100LL
>>is available at essentially any airport serving piston powered airplanes.
>
>I've tried to run 100LL in my MG Midget but the leadfouling is too
>troublesome. 100LL has gobs of lead!! If you do this get some Alcor TCP; ask
>for Tom Cat Piss at the aircraft supply store. It will help the lead ball up
>and not attach itself to the plugs and combustion chamber. I don't think
>anyone will question you about buying fuel as long as it's not dispensed
>into the bike tank. Take a gas can to the airport and try this experiment
>close to home.

I am fortunate to have an aircraft mechanic for a neighbor. Whenever I need it, he fills my 5 gallon can with 100LL. I tend to use about 25% 100 LL with 92 NoLead and everyone seems to be happy.....

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27.8 Unleded

From: Alastair Young
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 12:26:31 -0800

On Jan 6, 2:33pm, Christopher Ball wrote:
> Subject: SHELL GAS CHANGES IN CANADA
> I can't recall if this came up on the car or the bike net so I'll
> repeat it in short form. In Canada all the classic machinery was
> filling up at Shell stations because they put a lot of time and
> money into telling us all about the lead substitute that they were
> putting in their gas.
>
> Well, last fall they QUIETLY stopped adding it in and needless to
> say they did NOT come to all the nice club meetings to tell us THAT !
> I have spoken, as have several others, with senior Shell chemical
> people and they are not very proud of the way head office handled it
> either.
>
> So, if you ride in Canada you can gas up anywhere you like and bring
> your own additives of choice if needed and/or desired.
> -------------
> BTW, I'm more rooted in the car side of this issue. What's the bike
> wisdom on unleaded gas in the pre-74 era machines? What you use to
> protect the valves or have all the old bikes had top ends done
> already?
>

As far as I can gather, my alloy head Ariel is ok because it was manufactured with hardened valve seats (austenitic?) but if and when I ever get the iron head twinport project moving I should probably get hardened seats fitted along with the other head repair work.

I have done about 10k miles on the alloy head bike on British/Irish/Norse unleaded without apparent problems.

British bike owners probably need their heads looked at :-)

From: Latte' Jed
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 15:31 EST

> From: "andrew m. boardman" <amb@large.org>
> It's been pointed out to me (albeit in far ruder terms) that an
> introduction is in order. Well, then, my name is andrew, I currently
> live in New Jersey (east coast USA), and the only whole two-wheeled
> vehicles in my garage are decidedly boring. There're also lots of old
> oily parts in there from which something more interesting may or may not
> emerge in a month or three, but no promises. (Currently, I visit Latte'
> Jed when I need a fix of proper motos.)
>
> Incidentally, I also need an R90.

Someone take pity on this poor soul, he lives in New Jersey and rides a Kawasaki. He'd also be happy with a Commando.

(Call 1-900-RUDE-JED and I'll be rude to you too! $1.99/minute, children over 18 please)

From: GNBII
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 15:51:00 -0500

From my experience speaking with other Nortoneers, there is very little indeed to worry about when it comes to UL gasoline. They just don't seem to wear that much. Chances are you will be needing a valve job for other reasons prior to the one we are discussing, and then, if you want, you might want to go for hardened seats, but I think that the majority of us just aren't going to have much of a problem, given that we are mostly sportsmen and not counting on the bikes for daily transport.

Bewley/Atlanta

From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 00:14:24 -0400

A chart on this subject is in the Norton Tech Digest: English [Research] octane Modern US [R+M/2]

        100     95.1
        97      92.2
        95      90.3
        94      89.4

Therefore, the Shell guy is right, and you may even be able to go lower than 92 if you retard the spark a bit.

>Does unleaded fuel damage our valves?

>What is the current thinking on synthetic oils verses non-synthetic?

Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate

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