From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 12:33:24 PDT
rcording@qntm.com writes:
>RE: rusty fork tubes Norton
After you do get new fork tubes, try using gaiters instead of those little plastic 'scrapers'. Looks much nicer and keeps the rocks and dirt from nicking your new tubes!
> On the front hub, I'd polish the sides and either respray or powdercoat
> the center of the hub the original light silver color. Make sure
you
> replace the wheel bearings (expensive!) and you'll probably have
to do
> something with the brake shoes.
The wheel bearings aren't very expensive at all. Just take the old ones down to a local bearing house and they'll match up some new ones. When I bought mine they came with thin permanent covers which can just be pried off so you can repack them when needed.
Ralph
From: Stephen Hill
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 1994 09:18:00 -0700 (PDT)
I am putting the front end on my 1970 Enfield Interceptor back to stock. For 1969 and 1970 they had an early Commando front end, with a few changes such as longer stanchion tubes. I want to replace the bushes and seals, which are stock Commando parts. I was recently told by a very knowledgeable British enthusiast and machinist to stay away from bushes which are made from oil-lite brass: it chews up the stanchion tubes. This fellow just makes his own out of solid brass (forget what type). How concerned should I be about this? Would it still be a concern with hard-chromed tubes? Is there a supplier of bushes which are not made of oil-lite material? I would appreciate some help on this.
Stephen Hill
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 1994 12:12:52 -0500 (EST)
Steve writes:
>Is there a supplier of bushes which are not made of oil-lite material?
Pacific Bearing
P.O. Box 6980
Rockford, IL 61126-6980
Voice 800 962 8979
FAX 815 962 3818
They produce a line of 6061 T6 anodized aluminum bearings lined with "FRELON". I am not sure of the Roadholder dimensions but they show a part # PSF-2024-16 with a 1 1/4" I.D. and a 1 1/2" O.D. flange bearing. 1/16" increments in ID and OD are available from stock. I have a sample 1/2" linear bearing which slides very freely. Some bearings are available with built in seals.
Pete
From: Your Name Here
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 94 12:37:55 -0600
Another source I used for the top bushings for my Spitfire were from Garlock bearings. These are available from most bearing stores (usually special order.
Put them on the bike. works Damn good.
This material is a sintered bronze with a "DU" (lead teflon) coating. This is the same stuff that h*nd* and others used to make for a much reduced stiction forks in the early 80's. Amazing stuff. I could only find the stuff that works on the top of the tubes.
Andrew Wolf
Indian Chief
66 BSA Spitfire
67 Triumph Bonneville
70 350 Ducati
74 750 Ducati GT "beast"
65 MGB
From: Nancy J Caputo
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 04:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
>Mine was exhibiting the mushy-ness, and I went to the above mentioned
>"Progressive Spring Kit" and used straight 20w. It went from
>spongy and out-of-control to _very_ stiff. Switched to
>a specialized 15w fork oil, and it was better. New seals too.
>Once I got used to them, the stock fork feel is too soft.
The Progressives do seem to wear in (out?) after about 5K. My experience was very similar to the above, with an interesting variation. I now use higher bars and I think that with less force on my arms and upper body I don't feel the shocks as much. With low or European bars, and a more forward lean, I was under more tension when I rode (part of the reason for the switch).
Even with an initial hard feel to them, the Progressive springs are an improvement over stock. Brake dive is less and I felt that tracking on bumpy roads at speed was improved. Freeway riding is another matter though, and I found the thump-thump-thump of cracks annoying. Just have to stick to the backroads . . . .
Cheers,
Lou TM LUIGI ncaputo@uclink.berkeley.edu
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 17:44:10 -0600
I almost forgot to post this question: What kind of oil do you put in your fork tubes? I've tried the ATF which is recommended in the owners manual but the viscoscity is too low and I keep bottoming out. Can you use regular motor oil 20/50?
LTR
'79 Bonneville Special
'72 Tiger
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 95 23:11 EST
> I almost forgot to post this question: What kind of oil do you put
in your
> fork tubes? I've tried the ATF which is recommended in the owners
mannual
> but the viscoscity is too low and I keep bottoming out. Can you use
regualr
> motor oil 20/50?
I buy fork oil from the motorcycle shop. It's probably about the same thing as hydraulic oil only more expensive.
From: Roy Armstrong
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:14:31 +1100
Laurence T. Reiter wrote:
>I almost forgot to post this question: What kind of oil do you put
in your
>fork tubes? I've tried the ATF which is recommended in the owners
mannual
>but the viscoscity is too low and I keep bottoming out. Can you use
regualr
>motor oil 20/50?
With the risk of starting alot of trafic about this topical subject. I use ATF in some of my forks and 20/50 in other forks. Both will work to different degrees. The 20/50 gives a harder ride than ATF the choice is yours.
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 08:14:26 +0000 (GMT)
I use, and have used for some time SAE20 fork oil. I believe, thicker = more dampening, thinner = less dampening. Also more oil than recommended = bottoming before it should, less is opposite.
When I change Fork Oil in the winter, I really start to wonder if I've got all the old stuff out, the Oil becomes very viscious (sp) during a typical blighty winter. As I always put the right amount in, this leads me to believe that there's too much in the forks, old + new. Trouble is, there's no easy way to heat the fork legs to warm the old oil to get it all out, apart form leaving the bike in the bathroom overnight but then you get problems with condensation. As previously stated, more oil then recommended and the forks will 'bottom' before they should.
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton).
From: Bob Cram
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 12:29:59 +0000
Peter Aslan writes:
> Trouble is, there's no easy way to heat the fork legs
> to warm the old oil to get it all out, apart form
> leaving the bike in the bathroom overnight but then you
> get problems with condensation.
I'm not sure if this works on all makes, but certainly does on my Bonneville. When you remove the fork caps to fill the forks, also pull the springs out. (Gives you a good chance to check them and clean them if they need it, so is useful anyway.) This does necessitate removing the handlebars, but since fork oil changes for me are a winter job, I don't mind. Once this is done the fork tubes will slide very easily up and down on the stanchions because they aren't working against the resistance of the springs. This creates a pumping action that literally fires the fork oil out of the drain holes at the bottom. To make sure I get it really clean, I usually fill it with some fresh ATF, drain that the same way, and then refill with clean ATF.
So to the other question, I too have been using ATF, but have wondered about trying fork oil.
From: Richard E Bemben
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 08:02:53 -0500
>I almost forgot to post this question: What kind of oil do you put
in your
>fork tubes? I've tried the ATF which is recommended in the owners
mannual
>but the viscoscity is too low and I keep bottoming out. Can you use
regualr
>motor oil 20/50?
For what its worth, you can use just about anything. The heavier the fluid the harder the ride & vice versa. The only thing I wouldn't suggest you use is synthetic oil of any kind. A friend of mine suggested that I try it since its about the same viscosity as regular fork oil; The ride was quite hard and in addition, synthetic stuff kind find its way through the smallest of openings. The seals I had were quite new but the stuff still managed to get by.
Rich
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 14:16 EST
> >I almost forgot to post this question: What kind of oil do you put
in your
> >fork tubes? I've tried the ATF which is recommended in the owners
mannual
> >but the viscoscity is too low and I keep bottoming out. Can you
use regualr
> >motor oil 20/50?
>
> For what its worth, you can use just about anything. The heavier
the fluid
> the harder the ride & vice versa. The only thing I wouldn't suggest
you
> use is synthetic oil of any kind. A friend of mine suggested that
I try it
> since its about the same viscosity as regular fork oil; The ride
was quite
> hard and in addition, synthetic stuff kind find its way through the
smallest
> of openings. The seals I had were quite new but the stuff still managed
to
> get by.
I've heard that different types of oils are measured with different scales, so 50W gear oil and 50W engine oil aren't the same viscosity. Can someone verify this? Why? Any idea what scale's used on hydraulic oil?
Someone mentioned that overfilling forks can cause them to bottom out to soon - it can also blow your seals.
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 17:47:29 -0600
OK, raise your electronic hands if you use:
A) ATF fluid
B) Fork Oil
C) Gear Oil
D) Engine Oil (20/50)
E) Other (Wessen, Extra Virgin Olive, etc.)
In your fork tubes. You can send the response to me if you don't want to clog the Brit-Iron arteries.
LTR
From: Ken Canaga
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:42:52 -0500 (EST)
Laurence Reiter wrote:
>OK, raise your electronic hands if you use:
>A) ATF fluid
>B) Fork Oil
>C) Gear Oil
>D) Engine Oil (20/50)
>E) Other (Wessen, Extra Virgin Olive, etc.)
>In your fork tubes.
I use 20W fork oil in Norton Commando forks for street use and most racing use, but sometimes 30W for bumpy tracks. I use 10W fork oil in Rickman forks for racing, and it seems to work as well as the ATF Rickman used to recommend.
Ken Canaga
Left Coast Racing
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:17:53 +0000 (GMT)
On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Laurence T. Reiter wrote:
> OK, raise your electronic hands if you use:
>
> A) ATF fluid
> B) Fork Oil
> C) Gear Oil
> D) Engine Oil (20/50)
> E) Other (Wessen, Extra Virgin Olive, etc.)
>
> In your fork tubes.
For my Norton Commando,
I use SAE 20 Oil in my Teledraulic Front forks, 150cc per leg.
Regards, Captain Norton.
From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 09:00:48 +0000
I use ATF fluid.
Laurence, can you report back a summary of everything you receive? Hope that's not an unreasonable request.
I'm sending my response to everyone, because I also wanted to suggest that if using fork oil, people include what weight of fork oil.
From: Ron Sands
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:16:27 -0500 (EST)
B) Fork Oil.
Ron Sands
67 T120R Bonneville
73 T150V Trident
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:32:39 -0600
Here are the Fork Oil results thus far:
Type of Oil Number of Users
ATF Fluid 2
Fork Oil 7
Gear Oil 0
Engine Oil 2
Other 1
So where are all of the other Brit-bikers?
LTR
P.S. I wont be back till Monday so you have a few days to think it over.
From: Bruce P. Schuck
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 12:23:55 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Laurence T. Reiter wrote:
> Here are the Fork Oil results thus far:
>
>
> Type of Oil Number of Users
> ATF Fluid 2
> Fork Oil 7
> Gear Oil 0
> Engine Oil 2
> Other 1
>
> So where are all of the other Brit-bikers?
Hmmm, I couldn't find where to add fork oil to my springer front end! :-> However, when the bike was stock before the crash, I used Fork Oil.
From: Richard E Bemben
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 13:16:34 -0500
> Here are the Fork Oil results thus far:
>
> Type of Oil Number of Users
> ATF Fluid 2
> Fork Oil 7
> Gear Oil 0
> Engine Oil 2
> Other 1
>
> So where are all of the other Brit-bikers?
OHHHhhhh, okay...its fork oil for me.
Rich
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 20:28:52 +0100
>Here are the Fork Oil results thus far:
>
>Type of Oil Number of Users
>ATF Fluid 2
>Fork Oil 7
>Gear Oil 0
>Engine Oil 2
>Other 1
>
SAE 20 engine oil in the 5T forks (as specified by Triumph....)
Espen
From: Robin Tuluie
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 15:11:37 -0500
> Here are the Fork Oil results thus far:
>
> Type of Oil Number of Users
> ATF Fluid 2
> Fork Oil 7
> Gear Oil 0
> Engine Oil 2
> Other 1
>
> So where are all of the other Brit-bikers?
I use the cheapest domestic beer I can find. It is a well know fact that it is virtually impossible to get any cheap, domestic brand to foam, even under extreme conditions.
When I grew up in Germany it was a real problem to obtain any good fork beer that wouldn't immediatly foam up. At the time, I did settle for an Andechser Doppel Bock, but not so much for it's foaming resistance.
Actually, I use 10 to 20 w fork oil in the racing Norton (depending on the track conditions, etc.) and a special synthetic racing fork oil in the Tul-da. My street bikes have usually anything that's left over, so say 5 to 30w fork oil.
Cheers,
Rob
From: Keijo Aatos Virtanen
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 08:50:37 +0200 (EET)
Hi folks,
I seem to neglected the poll, but here's my reply:
I have used fork oil always in my Royal Enfields. (The same with other bikes - but they are non-brits...)
All The Best,
Keijo
From: Mike Taglier
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 02:18:08 -0500
Last time I filled the forks I used fork oil, but that was so long ago
there
might not be any oil at this stage. Next time, I think I'll try ATF,
which
would be cheaper and much easier to get.
Mike Taglier Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Stanton, Glenn
Date: 20 Jan 1995 11:46:41 U
my e-mail was taking a crap for two days!
I use fork oil
lata'
From: Bob Mitchell
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 09:59:26 -0500
Here's a late entry for the fork oil survey - I've not checked my e-mail for a few days.
I use SAE 20 fork oil in the Triumphs.
Bob Mitchell
From: Rob Tayloe
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 11:13:41 EST
In my '64 T120R (triumph bonneville) I use Harley Davidson's Screaming Eagle Fork Oil. I actually had this on hand already. I'm not sure what was previously in the forks, but the ride now is much improved. I'll likely stick with the HD stuff.
-- ride safe -- (Snow & ice today, no riding, guess I'll watch Redline
America again...)
Rob Tayloe
From: Bob Cram
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 13:20:46 +0000
The fork oil survey has convinced me I should give fork oil a try instead of the ATF I've been using. Anyone care to recommend what weight I should try on a 1972 Bonneville?
From: Kim Davis
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 09:27:25 -0500 (EST)
ATF.
Kim Davis
Triumphs and BSA co-owner
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Subject: Forkin' Oil.
I just got back today and will tally the results of the Fork Oil pol some time later this afternoon. Looks like people rose to the occasion.
LTR
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:29:34 -0600
Here is the final poll of front end lubing:
Type of Oil Number of Users
ATF Fluid 5
Fork Oil 22
Gear Oil 0
Engine Oil 7
Other 2
There was quite a variety of weights (10W, 20W, 30W....) and some
fancy names of oils from afar (Harley Davidson super duper fork oil) as
well as one springer front end (who has our sympathies) and a guy who makes
aromatic exhaust (don't ask). Overall I think it comes down to this:
Most people use fork oil and not ATF so that's what I'm gonna filler up with.
Thanks to all.
LTR
'79 Bonneville Special (20W Fork Oil)
'72 Tiger (was ATF will be 20W Fork oil)
From: Joseph A. Gaude'
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 12:24:33 -0800
On Jan 23, 1:20pm, Bob Cram wrote:
> Subject: Re: And the winner is....
> The fork oil survey has convinced me I should give fork oil a try
> instead of the ATF I've been using. Anyone care to recommend what
> weight I should try on a 1972 Bonneville?
>-- End of excerpt from Bob Cram
My '72 B50SS loves Bel-Ray 15wt. I weigh 150 lbs. and the bike is lighter than the Bonnie. I'd go for Bel-Ray 20wt. If it's over-damped, get the 15...
...Joe
From: Roy Armstrong
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:15:56 +1100
>The fork oil survey has convinced me I should give fork oil a try
>instead of the ATF I've been using. Anyone care to recommend what
>weight I should try on a 1972 Bonneville?
I could be smart and say 20W/50 but I won't. Opps I just did.
Safe riding Roy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________
| Roy Armstrong
_--_|\
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Division of / \
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| | Manufacturing Technology \_.--._/
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From: Michael Read
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 16:05 ET
Bewley/Atlanta writes:
> I have heard from several people, and Brian Slark writes regularly
>(in the Norton News) to avoid these types of seal as they add to the
> stiction of the forks. I wonder, as a matter of fact, if this (I
> use 'em, didn't know any better at the time...) doesn't add to my
> headshake problems on the Commando. Bewley/Atlanta
Must be just those flimsy Norton forks! I've had the so-called "leakproof" seals in my T150V now for the past five years with nary a problem. Lots of mileage, no leakage, and I have never been aware of any increase in fork "stiction" because of them. Of course maybe if you used new fork springs it might help... <grin>
MJR...real bikes fire EVERY revolution...
73' T150V
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:46:56 CST
Bob Cram writes:
> Given the trouble I have with fork seals, I wouldn't want to use
> anything generic. British Cycle Supply advertises a "leakproof"
> fork soil which they claim lasts much longer than the regular ones.
> I've never used them, but I'm planning to install them this winter.
> They cost a bit more, but it's not, just a few bucks extra per seal.
This is a good idea if they work but the Norman Hyde gaskets I purchased from them last time (for twice as much $) are going to be replaced with Corn Flakes box gaskets this time. I expect they will leak every bit as bad.
Rob
*** The uncertaincy of being able to start on a journey was
only exceeded by the improbability of our ever reaching our
destination in the saddle. (Ixion, Classic Motorcycles) ***
From: Nancy J Caputo
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:03:47 -0800 (PST)
It took me several sets of fork seals to realize that whichever brand you use their chances of providing a good seal are really dependent on the surface of the fork tubes. What has been successful for me is to examine the entire wearing surface with a good light from all angles. Wherever there is the slightest hint of a depression or a ridge you need to smooth it carefully with 1- a fine file, 2-steel wool (000), and 3- a polishing compound. The seal itself need to be installed carefully, cleaned, oiled.
It sounds simple but until you realize that the slightest ridge on the fork tube can cause problems you'll continue to get leaks. Don't know why it took me so long to figure this out-- it's written clearly in all the manuals-- but it has made a huge difference in the time between seal replacements for me.
Sun by Tuesday.
Lou
25.4 Tube restoration or replacement
From: chlit
Date: Mon, 09 May 94 23:58:54 EDT
My Norton was previously stored al dente, and as a result, the fork tubes, among other thing, are pitted and stained at the area around the seal. I would like to know if there is a fix, or if I am doomed to replace at great expense.
While I'm on the subject, can you imagine what the front hub looks like now? What is the best approach to that problem (mondo corrosion)?
Thanks, Little
70 441
71 TR6
72 Commando
From: Your Name Here
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 06:50:02 -0600
Rusty tubes, low cost option!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Franks forking in the cycle magazines does great stuff. Ordered a set for my BSA and in 1 week they came to my door, and they were hard chrome plated. Great work and cheap, about $120 per pair.
Andrew Wolf
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 09:39:15 -0500 (EST)
>My Norton was previously stored al dente, and as a result, the fork
tubes,
>among other thing, are pitted and stained at the area around the seal.
I
>would like to know if there is a fix, or if I am doomed to replace
at great
>expense.
>Thanks, Little
You can have the tubes polished and replated but it will cost more than new ones. Franks Machine (I think in the Chicago area) has been making good quality replacements for many years. They are bright chrome. The late factory tubes are ground hard chrome and more durable. I would estimate Franks at $145 and stock at <$200/pr. Sorry I don't have Frank's # handy. Make sure to replace the seals and dust boots when you replace the tubes. The dust boots are vinyl plastic and harden with age. They will trap dirt and score your tubes in short order.
Pete Serrino
'71 Fastback
From: John Kula
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 09:28:28 PDT
Consider getting the tubes hard-chromed. It may cost a bit more than new forks, but they're a damned sight better, will last forever, etc.
John Kula Commando 930 (MacBeth)
From: John Pragnell
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 16:31:08 BST
I am sure that in England from Fair Spares my commando fork legs only cost between 30 and 40 GBP (approx 50 to 60 $). The pattern one are hard chrome and the originals are softer (so said Fair Spares).
john (still building my john player production racer if only Fair Spares would finish the engine!!!)
From: chlit
Date: 10 May 94 09:41:12 -0800
Frank's Maintenance & Eng.: 312-475-1003
I believe they quoted me $120 (including shipping) for a pair. Local
Brit Shop (Rabers 408-998-4495) had NOS for $140 (plus tax/freight). Take
your pick.
On the front hub, I'd polish the sides and either respray or powdercoat the center of the hub the original light silver color. Make sure you replace the wheel bearings (expensive!) and you'll probably have to do something with the brake shoes. Rick
From: Stephen Hill
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
Geoff Easton writes: "On a slightly different but related topic, has anyone up here tried having fork tubes hard chromed and reground to size? I seem to recall reading quite a while ago that reground fork tubes actually worked better because of the precision machining. I have seen adverts for this is the US and UK but not in Canada. Any comments?"
I have had fork tubes chromed and reground on my Enfields and my Commando, with good results. Just to be clear, the type of plating I have had done is called hard-chroming, which is more of an industrial process, and much tougher than decorative chroming. Most British bikes stanchions came with a decorative chrome, if they were chromed at all.
In hardchroming the plating shop builds up the material oversize and grinds a finished diameter. This looks after most pitting and undersize problems, to a depth of about 1/16 or so. Much thicker and and the material can be unstable. The finished diameter is produced on a special machine which spins the tube while the operator moves the grinding head (they use a belt, not a stone) along the length of the tube in a semi-supported manner. The process is somewhere between free-hand grinding and grinding between centers. The main point is it is part art and part science, and a bozo will give you a stanchion which varies radically in diameter along the length, with sticking bushes and fork seals as a result.
The forks I had done varied in diameter over the length as little as .002, witch is nothing. Hardchroming is a specialised job which most of the decorative chrome shops don't get involved in. Find out where the machine shops send the hydraulic rams they are rebuilding for replating, but make sure the place has experience in doing fiddly stuff like stanchions. Ask around. It also helps to straighten the tubes before you send drop them off - they are usually not straight. Assuming small deviations, it is easy to do. Roll them on a flat surface, like the cast top of a table saw. Mark the high. Set the stanchio on a couple of 2x4's on the concrete floor. Place a piece of 2x4 over the high spot, and smack it (the 2x4) with a sledgehammer. It works. If you don't straighten it, the shop will, probably not as well, and charge you for it.
I have found the cost of hardchroming to be a few bucks less than new stanchions. So why bother?
1. By the time you add shipping and tax on the new parts, they cost more.
2. You know what you are working with, unlike the raffle you play when ordering reproduction parts.
3. The stanchion will probably never need to be replated. (Most reproduction parts are not hardchromed).
4. Anybody can buy a part. Repairing one is more rewarding.
Stephen
From: Your Name Here
Subject: Re: rechroming fork tubes
I have looked into rechroming fork tubes, and have found that, at least in my area, the price of new ones from Franks Forking is somewhat lower.
I too try to repair instead of replace. But considering the cost and safety the new ones are a MUCH better deal.
Franks Forking tubes are great!! New units, properly constructed, and hard chromed. They will make it any way you want. If you want to change damping characteristics they will drill holes to you specs or leave the tubes undrilled. Longer or shorter tubes, no problem. A special tube? Just provide them some time, money and specifications and you got it.
The 2 sets I have gotten from them are great. They seem to really understand what goes into making a tube. Aside from all payment being COD they are really good.
Don't have to worry about who else has 'straightened' my fork tubes over the near 30 year life of my bikes.
Don't have to worry about fork seal leaks on my girder forks on my Indian ;^}
Andrew Wolf