From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 1994 09:29:00 +0000
Last night I was riding down a busy six lane thoroughfare when my exhaust note suddenly got much louder. I looked down and had lost my right muffler. Infuriating, since it is only a year old. I worked my way back, found a place to pull over, ran out during a break in the traffic and scooped it up (ouch, still hot and no gloves). Through some minor miracle, it had only one small dent and on the inside edge of the muffler where nobody will see it anyway.
It turned out that the mounting bracket, which is about 22 years old, had finally succumbed to metal fatigue and vibration and cracked in half. I then rode several miles home without the muffler on and found that the persistent misfire problem I've had all summer between 3000 and 3500 rpm, mainly while accelerating and at a certain mid-range throttle opening, was gone. I've assumed this was due to a too rich mixture because of the carbon flake on the plugs, and I have tried everything to fix it, mainly based on advice from all of you. Since it's illegal and noisy to run without mufflers, can anyone advise me on what this means for how I need to adjust Carb mixture once the muffler is back on?
Also, this is a Toga muffler. Has anyone had similar problems with them
affecting Carb mixture? And does anyone have the phone number for Toga
if I
need to seek their advice?
From: Bob Cram
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 13:33:49 +0000
A week or so ago I asked if anyone had experience with aftermarket Toga mufflers making the bike run rich, presumably because the mufflers are too restrictive. I didn't get any responses.
Anyway, I was wrong, they are aftermarket Campbell mufflers. They are supposed to be made to look and act like the originals, but I've been having this problem for awhile, and I've tried everything else. Electric's have been thoroughly checked over. Everything in the Carbs is new and clean. Air filters are new and clean. As I say, I've checked everything I can think of.
I am thinking of trying a smaller needle jet, .105 instead of .106,
and the correct needle for that jet size. This is because I get misfiring
at the mid-throttle range governed by the needle jet and needle. My needle
jets an
needles are new and are stock Amal, but this still happens. At the
moment, I get about 200 miles before the plugs carbon foul so badly that
I get serious misfiring and backfiring at all rpm and throttle ranges.
As long as the plugs are clean it is just between about 2500 and 3500 rpm
at mid-throttle and the misfiring is not so serious as to make me not ride
the bike. Am I crazy to try a smaller needle jet? Any comments or help
would be appreciated, as would the phone number of the company that makes
Campbell mufflers if anyone knows it.
From: Bob Cram
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 1994 16:20:16 +0000
You must be getting sick about hearing about my Bonneville and its richness problems, but I've just heard a new theory I'd like to bounce off the brit-ironers. I called British Cycle Supply (BCS) in Nova Scotia to see if they'd had complaints about Campbell mufflers causing rich running. Mark at BCS told me they'd never had such complaints, but they'd heard lots of rich running stories. He took me through a series of intelligent questions in about 60 seconds touching on all the key points of advice I've received from brit-iron this summer.
Then he asked if I was using a Boyer. I am. And 12 volt coils. I am. According to him (and I remember some sort of discussion of this on the list recently) Boyers were designed for Norton's with 6 volt coils, so when used on Triumphs, the wiring was simply changed to have the coils run in series at 6 volts each. (I admit to electric's being my weak point so if I get some of this wrong, it's probably me and not Mark at BCS.) He said they had had instances where this caused rich running in Triumphs, presumably because a coil running at half its capacity just didn't work the way it should. Other times it seemed to work fine. He couldn't promise me that 6 volt coils would fix it, but did say he'd seen the change to 6 volt fix rich running several times.
Now, 6 volt Lucas coils are $40 each. Before I spend that kind of money I'd like to know if what he's saying seems reasonable. By the way, he also mentioned that resistance plug wires with Boyers have caused problems and recommends non-resistor plug wires.
Bob Cram
72 Bonneville
From: John Pinkham
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 7:14:45 PDT
The 850 Norton Commando used a balance pipe to connect the exhaust headers. Dunstall's tuning book mentions that this increases power over two independent headers.
In 'Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems' there is a discussion of the phenomenon of 'interference' and a paragraph on its application to parallel twin motorcycle engines. An experimental exhaust setup is shown. It's tuning fork shaped, with the exhaust entering at the fork handle. One leg of the fork is capped, while exhaust exits the other open leg. The capped leg is the interference pipe. Pressure readings were taken along the length of the setup and plotted against crank angle. The effect of the interference pipe was to 'alter the pressure variation at the exhaust port, the sub-atmospheric part being much later than would be the case with a single pipe'. 'In applying the interference principle for practical use, the object is to obtain a favorable condition of low pressure over the scavenge period around tdc, and covering as wide an engine rev/min range as possible'.
'Effect on parallel twin.
An interesting modification to the exhaust system of a 650 cc twin-cylinder
motorcycle engine with exhausting intervals at 360 crank degrees, involved
coupling the two separate pipes by means of a cross-pipe located close
up to the port outlets. The intention was to improve silencing by doubling
the silencer capacity available to each individual cylinder, since flow
in the cross-pipe would have such effect. However, the improvement in power
output obtained by this simple modification was such to indicate that the
cross-pipe was functioning to some extent as an interference pipe, though
the lessened resistance to mass flow as a result of doubling the silencer
capacity could also have an advantageous effect.'
Several of the Norton spares suppliers in England don't offer the balanced headers for 850's. Their catalogues describe the separate 750 style headers as offering no power loss and better (louder?) sound.
If the balance pipe gives more power, do the vintage racers use this setup?
John
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 09:58:42 +0100
> The 850 Norton Commando used a balance pipe to connect the exhaust
> headers. Dunstall's tuning book mentions that this increases power
> over two independent headers.
[snip]
What my parts dealer says is that the coupling-pipe gives a better top end, and two independent pipes give you better bottom grunt. The first thing is understandable from the theory mentioned in the post, the cross-pipe config. is tuned for that purpose. The better bottom end without the cross-pipe is harder to explain, comments anybody? (and no flames please)!
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: John Knobel
Date: 31 Oct 1994 11:46:48 U
>From: Espen Olsen
>Subject: Re: Balance Pipes
>What my parts dealer says is that the coupling-pipe gives a better
top
>end, and two independent pipes give you better bottom grunt. The first
>thing is understandable from the theory mentioned in the post, the
cross-
>pipe config.
>is tuned for that purpose. The better bottom end without the cross-
>pipe is harder to explain, comments anybody? (and no flames please)!
Quick recall from years ago...anyone is welcome to correct me...
Exhaust tuning includes both flow and wave considerations. If you recall
the text quoted about blocked off pipes there was obviously no flow through
that pipe. As pulses of a gas are flowing through a pipe, each transition(change
in diameter, branches, etc) introduces a new pulse (wave) some of which
is reflected and goes back. Depending on where the transitions are made
the pulse can be additive or subtractive at other locations varying with
the cycle. So a pipe-set will have various natural frequencies for waves
starting from different locations. The exciting frequency is the opening
of the exhaust valve. If the exhaust is tuned properly a negative pulse
will arrive as it is open to help pull exhaust gas out and perhaps a positive
pulse arrive just as it's shutting to push some overflow intake back in
(especially on two-stroke piston ports). The design is therefore a compromise
considering the desired operating RPM, silencing, and so on. Combining
the systems of two cylinders gives you another pulse(s) to play with and
more variables too, as well as greater flow opportunities. (On the Norton's
I personally don't think it's worth the pain to deal with the crossover
- I have one with and one without - but I have no scientific data to back
that up). For racing a proper length megaphone should work pretty well.
You can get a rough idea of the figuring remembering that sound travels at about 1000 ft/sec (it's different in exhaust pulses in a hot gases under pressure, but close enough for example) and the distance traveled is valve to silencer outlet and then back ( = pipe lengths of 3 ft @ 10,000 rpm, 4 @ 7200 rpm and so on)
Ok - start correcting! _john K.
From: GNBII
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:23:15 -0500
>> The 850 Norton Commando used a balance pipe to connect the exhaust
>>headers. Dunstall's tuning book mentions that this increases power
>>over two independent headers.
>>[snip]
>What my parts dealer says is that the coupling-pipe gives a better
top end,
>and two independent pipes give you better bottom grunt. The first
thing is
>understandable from the theory mentioned in the post, the cross-pipe
config.
>is tuned for that purpose. The better bottom end without the cross-pipe
is
>harder to explain, comments anybody? (and no flames please)!
>Espen
I was told the crossover increases midrange (could call it bottom end) grunt and this proved true on my LeMans 1. FWIW. Possibly at the cost of top end, don't knwo. Most people on Commandos, in my opinion, run the 750 style (no crossover) because they are better looking, easier to deal with, and don't have those joints to rust and break.
Bewley/Atlanta
From: Bob Cram
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 13:25:43 +0000
Thanks to everyone who sent me messages about whether it was a bad idea to change to header pipes without the balance pipe. The response was unanimously to go ahead and make the change. I also did a little checking in J.R. Nelson's, Bonnie: The Development History and learned an interesting tidbit about the Bonnie balance pipe, which is likely true of almost all balance pipes.
Legislation was getting tighter in the late 60s re the noise from motorcycles, especially in the UK. Triumph had been running a different, nosier, exhaust system on the U.S. models than on the UK ones and the U.S. models had a couple more horsepower because of this. The balance pipe, introduced partway through the 69 year, allowed Triumph to use the noisier and more efficient U.S. spec mufflers on the UK bikes but keep the noise level the same because the balance pipes reduce exhaust noise. This gave the UK bikes the same horsepower increase.
In other words, J.R. Nelson confirms that there are no problems running without balance pipes, but expect the bike to be a bit noisier.
From: D.J. Walker
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:48:36 +0100 (BST)
I have replaced the balanced 850 pipes on my Commando and fitted 750-style unbalanced pipes. I do not consider it to be a problem at road speeds, myself.
However, if you want high speed performance from a machine a balancer pipe is a good idea. Balancer pipes on any multi generally help engines run well at higher revs, by allowing them to breath better, giving the exhaust gases room to expand into the extra space they provide. The higher up the balance-system is the better. Without the balance pipe, things can get a little restrictive up there when there's a lot of gas leaving the engine. Some people have tried remedying this by fitting wider bore pipes on unbalanced systems, but this seldom works. The problem is back-flow (a classic problem on racing singles). Back flow is caused when a partial vacuum forms on the inner curve of a wide-bore pipe. Most low-level exhaust systems turn the exhaust gases through almost 180 degrees in the space of less than a foot-distance-traveled. At high revs, exhaust gases are leaving the engine at a very high velocity, and sweep around the outside edge of the pipe. The partial vacuum on the inside edge creates vortices in the gas mixture, which allow gas to flow *back* up the pipe, *into* the combustion chamber. I know of a racing Velo-Venom that had this problem. Performance had plummeted, after fitting a bigbore exhaust. When gas analysis was done, exhaust gases were discovered swirling around inside the *carb*! The problem was remedied by the old motorcar racing trick, of fitting a dam in the inner bend of the exhaust, preventing backflow. I've never heard of anyone using this method on a racing twin with unbalanced pipes, but can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done. I believe there are one or two racing people on the list, who might have something to say.
Hmm, I've just read all that, and realized that it's a lot of gobbledygook. Never mind. What I *meant* to say, is that on a road bike I doubt if balancer pipes are all that significant, in their effect upon performance. Our type of bike isn't generally all that revvy, knohow, so I doubt backflow manifests itself all that often. Balance pipes make fitting more difficult and oft as not leak and rust and rattle anyway. Like the two Carb setup at the inlet end of things, I've dispensed with the balancer on my 850 Mando and can't say's I've noticed any difference.
Commando Dan
Leicester, England.
From: John Pinkham
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 94 17:39:10 EDT
Having just obtained a set of new headers for the Commando, thought it would be wise to try to prevent them from bluing. So I called around and found two products claiming to do such. Chrome-Guard from Cycle Shack @ 17.95 US for about 1.4 pounds of powder to be mixed with water, and Dyna-Cote premixed slurry for $21.95 a pint or so. I chose what the Harley dealers peddled: Dyna Cote. Application is a 2 or 3 day process requiring turning the pipes to prevent puddling, air drying for 24 hours, heating with a hair dryer for 30 minutes, reapplication of the slurry, more turning, and another 24 hour air dry and another 30 minutes with the hair dryer. Cure comes after an engine run. Sort of a PITA.
Wonder if high temp paint, such as BBQ black would work as well?
Of course the Dyna Cote is carcinogenic if used in California. Luckily I don't live there. I'd wager that the Dyna Cote ingredients cost less than a buck before they are packaged for the Harley boutiques.
John Pinkham
From: Stephen Hill
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 15:55:00 -0700 (PDT)
John Pinkham writes:
>Having just obtained a set of new headers for the Commando, thought
it
>would be wise to try to prevent them from bluing. So called around
and
>found two products claiming to do such etc....
Surely it is all black magic, and the best you can do is just postpone
the inevitable. Anybody out there have any experience in treating their
pipes with product a or z and then after a couple of years of hard use
have anything different than the natural patina they would have if they
had done nothing
at all?
Stephen Hill
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 08:24:27 CDT
In the realm of blue pipes, I tried flat black hi-temp engine enamel in the pipe because "I heard that works". Just blasted an even (?) coat around the inside of the pipe as far in as I could get. Brand new JC Whitless drag pipes and they did manage to stay somewhat less than blue - actually for the quality of the pipe (?) they did quite well compared to the last set I had on it. (Daytona 500)
If you are a purist of the Nth degree, turn your head now.
I finally found THE method for eliminating blued pipes. MAC black enamel
2 into 1 exhaust. I put them on Hobbes about 3 years ago (due to the 350+
bucks I was quoted to replace his then stock exhaust.) These things are
great! They did not peel and flake off, as I was told by EVERYBODY including
the place I ordered them from. They sounded as good as a 2 into 1 can sound
on a Brit, which is to say I'd much rather have stock. And they have held
up to rocks, dirt roads, being removed and reinstalled several times, and
repeated cleanings with the same stuff you clean an enamel stove with.
(Softscrub works great!) Now that I've collected my royalties... I put
these things on as a stopgap so I could raise the cash to get originals.
I still don't have the cash, but these pipes keep going. For the $150 I
paid for them they have been more than an outstanding replacement. Ad campaign
finished, we will now return to your local station.
--
Terry Drehmel LWotGM DOD1205
1972 Triumph Tiger - Hobbes
1971 Triumph Daytona - IP
From: Kim Davis
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, John Pinkham wrote:
> Of course the Dyna Cote is carcinogenic if used in California. Luckily
I
> don't live there.
Well, I would say that Dyna Cote is carcinogenic _everywhere... everyone outside of CA just ignores this fact, or is willing to accept this potential health risk! (However, this risk is probably minute compared to riding a motorcycle, or eating a tablespoon of peanut butter everyday.)
Kim
From: Chuck Kichline
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 09:41:28 CDT
So are the "big aluminum finned things" not available any more? These things looked like the standard head exhaust clamp but wrapped around the pipe and had fins about 4" high. They worked, but the esthetics took some getting used to.
I've also seen people use a strip of copper, or wound copper wire around the pipe where it exits the head. Ugly, but could be removed for show.
AFTER the pipes are blue, we'd use "Blue-a-Way" on them. Took off some of the shine, but most of the blue. I think it's still available - comes in a small bottle.
Controlling bluing on mufflers is easy - just remove the baffles B-)
From: GNBII
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:44:29 EDT
I've known folks who use BBQ black, in about 1 can/header. Idea is to build insulation inside the pipe. Most any HiTemp paint should work, but use lots of it.
Bewley
From: John Pinkham
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 10:01:36 EDT
They scoffed at me when I said that I was applying an anti-blueing material to my new chrome headers. They belittled my daring. They said that the chrome would turn blue with time. They were right, damn it. Well mostly right. The right header is still pristine gleaming chrome. The left one has turned slightly brown/blue at one point. The right sparkplug had lots of fluffy carbon on it. The left one was not blistered, but is running hotter than the ideal tan.
So perhaps, if your engine is always in optimum tune, the anti-blueing stuff, Dyno-Cote, might work.
It smells like hell while its hot curing, though.
An alternative, for Commandos, is to use the black chrome exhaust sold by RGM.
Come to think of it, blued pipes are like patina on fine furniture, like the dregs of a fine wine, like the love handles...
24.4 Kickstarter Fouling the Silencer.
From: John Kula
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 10:01:36 EDT
Commando exhaust pipes attach to the cylinder head and the mufflers. The mufflers attach to the exhaust pipes and an interesting little metal and rubber apparatus. There are two things to look for if the kickstart lever is fouling the muffler:
1. Is the exhaust system being adjusted while _all_ attachments are loose? Too many people bolt up the muffler/exhaust pipe connection first, and then expect to be able to get a decent final adjustment. Won't work. If the mufflers are rigidly attached to the pipes, then getting a good seal at the head will probably mean a muffler sticking out far enough to foul the K/S lever.
2. Are you using the correct number _and_ type (yes, there were several types made to suit different muffler/exhaust pipe combinations) of metal plates and rubber mounts, in the correct orientation? The parts book may not be the most helpful under the circumstances, but it's all we got.
Of course, if it's a pattern muffler you're using, all bets are off :-)
John Kula Commando 930 (MacBeth)
From: Dan Milhone
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 11:30:13 +0800
John Pinkham writes:
>Noticed that my Commando kickstand is fouling my centerstand. As the
>kickstand is tightly bolted, I conclude that it's slightly bent.
>Any tips on straightening it? Heat with a torch and then bang away?
>Quench in the blood of an infidel or air cool?
John:
A very small amount of "slop" at the bracket end can mean a couple of inches at the other end.
I had the same problem. What had happened was that the side-stand mounting tabs/ears had bent(spread) a bit. This gave the return spring a chance to retract the bar too far, at an angle. I heated and bent them back to a somewhat original location. In my case, I cooled the hot metal with a mixture of Cool-Whip and Taco-Sauce(mild). The results were dramatic.
Where was I? Oh yeah, I used a thin thrust washer to take up the small difference, and it's working well. I suppose the stand bar could be bent, but I'd guess that it's the mounting.
Perhaps the plastic desert topping/gut-bomb concoction is causing my starter kick-back.
Good luck
Dan Milhone
From: stephen
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 14:56:33 CDT
Aha! I'll bet you don't have an Electric Start 850! I have the same problem and have been told by several people that this is the way they left the factory. Two fixes: least popular: bend the exhaust tube (sounds scary to me, but that may have been what was done to yours), two: get an electric-start kick starter, which comes out further (I've also been told that these are hard to find due to the # of people who buy them for 750's and early 850;s)
-Steve
Possible 3rd solution: bend the kick start - anyone know if this is completely silly? Anyone tried it?
From: Knutson, Steve
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 13:55:00 PDT
I recently purchased a set of Toga headers and mufflers for my '74 Commando. The left side went on perfectly, BUT the right side stuck out a bit further so the kick starter lever hits it. Is it possible to slightly bend the header or will the chrome flake off?
The other option is to return the right side header for another. The supplier told me they usually have to bend the kick start lever so it will miss the pipe. I'm not to hot on doing that and if you look at the pipes it's easy to see that the left pipe is closer to the frame than the right. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Steve Knutson (sknutson@iastate.edu)
From: Daniel M. Milhone
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:59:25 +0800
Steve writes:
>...BUT the right side stuck out a bit further
>so the kick starter lever hits it. Is it possible to slightly bend
>the header or will the chrome flake off?
If it is off only a bit, you may want to try thinner rubber bushings at the rear mount point. It might just bring it in enough to clear the lever.
>... The supplier told me they usually have to bend the kick start
>lever so it will miss the pipe.
Being a solid, heavy piece of plated iron, let alone getting the correct angle, would seem to make bending it a bad idea.
Dan Milhone
'74 Commando
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:30:10 -0500 (EST)
>Steve writes:
>...BUT the right side stuck out a bit further
>so the kick starter lever hits it. Is it possible to slightly bend
>the header or will the chrome flake off?
The cast crank will crack I can tell you from experience. The crank was designed to work with the early exhaust pipes which ran closer to the frame. These are about impossible to find now. Over the years the crank will bend towards the frame. Trying to bend it back may break it. The MKIII model while not as pleasing to the eye is stronger and will provide more leverage. A muffler shop my be able to bend the exhaust pipe without too much damage.
Pete Serrino
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 17:30:17 EDT
From: John Pinkham
Estimate for rechroming Norton exhaust headers: $40-50 US each.
Cost for new headers: $45-50 US each.
From: Peter Azlan
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 09:37:45 BST
Are all Norton Commando owners on the list aware that there are two different types of exhaust pipes fixings, for the Commando ?
Apart from the Balance pipe and non balance pipe types, there are two different ways the exhausts fit to the head.
The first, usually referred to as the Mk1 and 2, (as in Commando Mk1 and 2) has a larger diameter, straight pipe section about 4" long welded to the end of the sweeping exhaust pipe where it goes into the head. This section has a grove about 1/4" from the end, two collets fit into the grove, the exhaust lockring engages on the collets and holds the exhaust into the head. This extra pipe section has a flat end which bears directly onto the exhaust gasket. This type offers little movement in the pipe without compromising the exhaust gasket seal.
Now, this type of fitting requires pipes bent up to the right shape and allows very little room for the creative pipe bender. Norton realized this and for the Mk3 produced a different pipe fixture which is, incidentally cheaper to produce.
The Mk3 type pipe has a simple belled end where it goes into the head, there's a pair of collets again which bear on the outer surface, which the finned lock ring engages on, with a coned ring seat which converts the inner belled shape into a flat surface for the gasket. This type of pipe allows far more flexibility in the positioning of the pipe, and is easier to fit.
The problem with the kickstart can be helped with the later type of fixing, to allow the pipe to be pulled in more.
The balance pipe up by the head was introduced, I think, on the 850's. This was to improve breathing and reduce noise, this type of pipe can also help to pull in the pipes to clear the kickstart. When I fit the Mk3 type with balance pipe, I'll pull the bottom runs of the pipes together under the bike before tightening up all the fixings.
Changing to the Mk3 Kickstart is another solution. The Mk 3 has a cranked arm, previous types are not as long and have a sweeping of crescent shape. Mk3 types are listed by most suppliers here in blighty, but a genuine one costs about 50 pounds, (wow).
On the subject of shocks and cheap replacements, a year or so ago I removed the springs from my old shocks, painted them and put new springs on, all for about 25 quid. The springs, in chrome or black are readily available. This approach however assumes that the shocks are ok, that they dampen ok, and are Oiltight.
Regards Peter Aslan, aka Cpt Norton.
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 16:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nancy J Caputo
>The other option is to return the right side header for another. The
>supplier told me they usually have to bend the kick start lever so
it
>will miss the pipe. I'm not to hot on doing that and if you look at
the
>pipes it's easy to see that the left pipe is closer to the frame than
>the right.
>Any suggestions?
It is possible to bend the kickstart. Two weekends ago a friend helped me replace my kickstart (it didn't want to come off, big time) and we used a replacement kickstart he had lying around. The new kickstart was hitting the muffler so we used a four foot long lever to bend it. I'd say we moved it out about an inch. Requires major force and I had my fingers crossed but it worked.
Lou TM LUIGI
Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 08:48:15 -0500
From: koszyk@skcla.monsanto.com
Hello - maybe you can help. I have a left cyl exhaust leak on a '78 T140V. I bought new pipes but if the leak persists can you suggest a sealer (the leak is at the head) and if so where to get it. Is "Hylomar" such a sealer? How would I apply it to keep it out of the head? Thanks in advance,
Frank
From: Laurence T. Reiter
Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 11:33:11 -0500
Frank,
I just put new head pipes on my '79 T140D and I used some stuff that a friend of mine recommends called acousta-seal (spelling?) and it worked fine for the little leaks. The problem is that the after market pipes which I put on don't quite fit (i.e. the curve of the pipe is off a bit), thus I still have a leak at the head. Also, I have these nasty little nuts that screw into the head to hold the insert up against the head pipe. It was a real design nightmare.
I don't know what your set-up is like, but I still think that this acousta-seal stuff worked. It's kind of black gooey and messy so be warned!
Later,
LTR
'79 Bonneville Special (Ruby)
Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 16:28:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nancy J Caputo
>Hello - maybe you can help. I have a left cyl exhaust leak on a '78
>T140V. I bought new pipes but if the leak persists can you suggest
>a sealer(the leak is at the head) and if so where to get it.
>
>Is "Hylomar" such a sealer? How would I apply it to keep it out of
>the head? Thanks in advance,
A friend uses hi-temp RTV (red) on his Commando to keep the lockrings in place.
Lou TM LUIGI
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 94 01:53:04 EDT
Some months ago, my header-pipe wrench was stolen by a nut, either in my garage or on a camping trip [I say "nut" because in neither of these places could anyone possibly have had a use for it].
If anybody knows of a cheap source for these (or has a spare to sell), let me know. The ones I see go for as high as $30, which seems about 4 times too much for a thing sawn out of sheet metal in 45 seconds on a bandsaw.
Actually, since I carry one of these on all long trips, I've toyed with sawing my own out of aluminum, since I've never found it necessary to use brute-force methods to keep my header pipe collars tight. Has anyone ever tried this?
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Cindy Grant
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 10:22:07 +0000
Mike Taglieri writes:
>Actually, since I carry one of these on all long trips, I've toyed
with
Okay, okay...I realize that Norton owners may be just a little twisted-
but you carry one of these things around with you??? Unless you have
tons of spare room in your tool kit for large, awkwardly shaped pieces
of metal, why not just safety wire the exhaust nuts to the head and be
done with it?
------------------------------
Cindy Grant
'63 Triumph TR6R '68 Mustang '70 MGB '70 Norton Commando Fastback
'89 Honda Hawk
------------------------------
From: John Pinkham
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 11:30:45 EDT
When pulling the head on my Commando, I noticed that one of the exhaust pipes had a small bit broken off the bell-mouthed flare section which fits inside the exhaust outlet of the head.
Question 1: Since I still have the bit that was broken, is it practical to braze or weld it back onto the pipe? The pipe is chromed, with quite a lot of blueing.
Question 2: Balance-pipes for twins: Any harm in going to independent pipes?
Question 3: What causes blueing of chrome? Any remedies/prevention's?
John Pinkham
'74 Commando
From: Clif Lines
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:03:24 -0600 (MDT)
On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, John Pinkham wrote:
> When pulling the head on my Commando, I noticed that one of the exhaust
> pipes had a small bit broken off the bell-mouthed flare section which
fits
> inside the exhaust outlet of the head.
[Snip]
John, I've been using 750 pipes on my 850 for years. They look better, and are easier to install. You have to buy the 750 exhaust nuts with the longer threaded collar because the 750 pipes don't use the collets. The pipe blueing can be from running too lean or just thin single wall pipes.
Clif
From: Robert D. Burget
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:27:26 -0700
< From: John Pinkham <John.Pinkham@lambada.oit.unc.edu>
< Question 3: What causes blueing of chrome? Any remedies/prevention's?
There is some stuff I got that is supposed to prevent bluing. It is used on very clean (as if new) pipes, and coats the inside with some white stuff that looks like plaster. I believe it is made by Drag Specialties, a Harley aftermarket company. I'll let you know how well it works if my Rocket 3 ever starts (real soon now).
The coloration is caused by heat, so other preventative measures include improved heat dissipation by using a piece of bare copper wire between the pipe and head. I'm also experimenting with genuine Heat Sink Goop between the exhaust pipe and the stub. The three-into-four-into-two headers on early triples are exceptionally prone to bluing, so I'm really trying to keep my only new header looking new.
It may be possible to polish the coloration off, if it's no too bad, but it takes a lot of elbow grease or some power tool to do any good on old, badly blued pipes. You can always re-plate them or just learn to like the pretty blue reflections... Good luck with the Commando, Bob Burget.
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 15:30:21 CDT
>Question 3: What causes blueing of chrome? Any remedies/prevention's?
The blueing is the metal tempering due to temperature.(?) I sprayed bug-bomb high-temp engine paint inside the new pipes I bought becuz somebody (?!) told me this would prevent blueing. Seems to be working. Maybe I have my valves adjusted right, cause the Daytona had the BLUEest pipes I've ever seen.
>From the "I've never tried this" file:
White vinegar, wiped on a warm-hot pipe will remove some blueing. Don't know who thought this up. I think maybe I read it in Foxfire or something.
Terry "this ought to get the conversation rolling" Drehmel
LWotGM
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 01:50:22 EDT
The right muffler on my '72 Commando Interstate decided to jump ship in northern New Jersey today, which must have been memorable for the people behind me; I didn't notice until the engine suddenly seemed louder. I now need quick, cheap replacements in time for Memorial Day weekend, and I don't want to keep using Interstate mufflers because I don't like their looks. Has anybody tried the "Chrome-plated seamless mufflers," megaphone style, that J.C. Whitney's new sale catalog has for $24.99? Could I use these on my decrepit Interstate pipes now, keep using them with proper Roadster pipes when I can afford them, then replace them with proper Roadster mufflers at some future date? Does anybody know what mounting bracket things have to be changed to go from Interstate to Roadster pipes?
From: Clif Lines
Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 09:36:18 -0600 (MDT)
Mike, you need to change the two triangular brackets (Roadster style) on each side in order for the mufflers to align with the Roadster pipes. All the bolts, nuts, and rubber spacers should still work. With aftermarket mufflers the mounting holes will probably be way off from the triangular brackets. Just remember not to mount the mufflers to anything other than the rubber isolated bracket.
Clif
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 23:11:16 EDT
In case anybody's wondering, I ultimately bought the J.C. Whitney mufflers on sale for $25.00 as emergency pre-vacation replacements for my 750 Commando [for future reference, the muffler was #01XX7556T in the latest catalog, and is called "Megaphone. Non removeable muffler-diffuser. Approx. 20 1/2" long, flares to 3 1/4"].
The mufflers seemed attractive, and have two baffles inside, plus a tube of perforated metal and fiberglass near the exit. The internal diameter is less than that of my surviving Norton Interstate muffler, and it comes with adapters for 1 3/8", 1 1/2", and 1 5/8" pipes. I drilled a second hole in the brackets, which let me fasten it to the rear rubber muffler mounts, and found it necessary to make yet another adapter out of copper tubing to shim up the exhaust pipe a bit.
Then, when I started the engine, it was terrible: the bike bucked and popped like a bronco, and couldn't rev faster than 2500 or so -- way too much back pressure! After some thought, I ripped out the perforated metal tube and fiberglass, which came out surprisingly easily, as if Whitney expected that some owners would try this.
Results are now, surprisingly, pretty good. The mufflers are louder, but not much different from the way the bike sounded before, with one Interstate and one copy muffler. Engine revs freely, and a very quick plug chop suggests that the jetting is OK.
I can't wholeheartedly recommend a muffler that chokes the engine until you rip part of it out, and that stack of 4 adapters looks rather stupid, but at a quarter of the price of Norton replica mufflers, this thing's some deal. I can live with these until I replace the entire system with its Roadster equivalent.
From: Peter Azlan
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 14:49:01 GMT
A few weeks back I was aligning the rear wheel of the ol' Commando, and wondering if I could set the rear wheel by visually aligning the edge of the wheel with the sides of the center stand, when I noticed a large hole in the bottom of one of the silencers. Hole about 4 Inches square, in the lower rear section of the right hand silencer, the reversed of reversed cone fame.
In my experience, the exhausts usually go around the two mounting bosses in the side, where the silencers mount on the rubber mounted plates. Anyway, this now gives me a reason to purchase the Stainless items I have been considering for some time.
Armour Motor Products are one of the less known parts suppliers, you may have seen their Ad in Classic Bike and The Classic Motorcycle where they list all the Italian and German stuff, they also stock British however, and pride themselves in being able to supply exhausts and silencers for really old bikes. As well as chrome, they also sell a lot of Stainless, in fact they appear to do both for all sorts of models. They will even make one to fit if they don't stock what you want and you take your bike along.
Anyway, back to the story. 120 English pounds later and a large box
arrives. They are, different, in a subtle sort of way. there is no weld
where the two cones meet, near the end, (I did say they were reverse cone
or pee shooter right) in fact the only weld which goes round the pipes
fixes the short section that fixes to he exhausts at the pointy end of
the large cone. Other strange
observations: the bit where they do fix to the exhausts is not the
usual 3 slots cut in the of the silencer and strap with nut and bolt affair,
this is a single cut slot and no strap, just a nut and bolt which pinch
a single slot, the nut and bolt secure through two sections welded either
side of the slot. This gives a much improved and cleaner look, hardly authentic
though.
The note that came with them says they polish up like chrome, and I am impressed, I also noticed Solvo Autosol shares had just gone up. Really, just like chrome with no fear of corrosion, you can even take the things off and polish them up on a polishing wheel to bring back the shine.
Regards, Captain Norton.
From: Peter Azlan
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 14:49:20 GMT
>Dan.Milhone@artecon.com (Dan Milhone) said:
>
>Peter:
>
>120 pounds for both?
>Sounds very reasonable.
Yes, 120 English pounds for both, but they are different in appearance, I thinks its something subtle enough that most won't notice though.
>Are they any different, decibels-wise, from
>the stock ones?
They are about the same as regular Pea-Shooters, or reversed cone silencers which were fitted as original equipment to the Commando.
>The local gens-d'armes are quite picky about
>noise, and mine is borderline as is.
As I said, they were fitted as original equipment, if its really a problem Armour Motor Products also supply the black cap things, real quiet, for 140 English pounds a pair.
So, pee-shooters, stainless, Part No SN13 61.50 Each.
Black cap, stainless, Part No SN13 140.00 Each
All prices include VAT, therefore the additional postage for overseas
may be compensated for by loosing the VAT, (Tax).
Regards, Captain Norton.Armour Motor Products, (Bournemouth) LTD.
784 Wimbourne Road
Moordown
Bournemouth
Dorset
BH9 2HSTelephone: (0202) 519409
Fax: (0202) 510671