From: MikeTnyc@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 94 01:20:36 EDT
>Thanks for your comments about the Combat engines. . . . When I
>rebuilt my '73 850 Commando one bearing (not sure which..) was
>weird so the shop where I had some work done and bought parts
>from bought a replacement for me. A heavy duty ball bearing of
>some sort. When I asked about using the Superblend bearing he
>mentioned that the bearings these days were much better so this
>would be OK.
I'm not so sure than modern bearings are necessarily better-made than those of 10 or 20 years ago -- does anybody know anything about this?
At any rate, John Hudson of the British Norton Owners Association discussed this question in a Classic Mechanics article some years ago:
"While writing about bearings we would mention that not everyone likes the idea of the crankshaft floating endwise on two roller bearings but agree that the standard timing side ballrace is overloaded on the larger engines. (For identification this was Hoffman 330 and R&M MJ30 and is now RHP 6306.) RHP however, supply a heavier duty ballrace of the notched type which employs 10 balls instead of 7 or 8 in the other types and is their type M306. It costs about the same as the FAG roller superblend."
My own 10-ball ballraces were like this, but were called 8306 N 1. One of these now functions as a paperweight/executive worry-toy at my office. Perhaps if I were doing it again, I'd only buy one Superblend, since they cost a fortune and I already HAD two of the heavy-duty ball bearings. Also, Hudson implies that having one on the timing side may be OK or even good, although it's clear that he is not RECOMMENDING it here -- only noting that certain other experts recommend it.
Hudson also mentions that the earliest Superblends were marked differently. They were by R&M (now RHP) and were numbered 6MRJA30, the "6" having been added by hand to the stamped number to signify it was a Superblend. Also, some or all of these bearings have the rollers fastened on the inner race rather than the outer.
These Superblend-ancestors are apparently comparable to modern Superblends, although they're recommended only for 750's, not 850's. Your 850 probably came equipped with the modern NJ306E Superblends.
Before the rest of you doze off with this scintillating material, I'll sum up by suggesting that you're probably OK as long as the 10-ball ballrace is on the timing side, and a minority of experts would even say that's an improvement on the usual setup. The pre-Superblend Commando had the ball-bearing on that side, so your mechanic probably did it that way - any way to find out?
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Brendan Murphy
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:38:03 -0800
I suspect that this has just happened to me, but since I've never had this happen before I thought I'd run it by the list. Yesterday during some errands the damn thing just stopped dead. The thing has no spark and according to my manual everything up to and including the coils test out good. Due to a hunch, I popped the cover that goes over the ignition pickup and was greeted with a flood of oil (1/4 cup really). I checked the frame tank and lo and behold the damn thing was below the minimum mark. While I know the thing leaks oil, it shouldn't have lost that much since I did an oil change only two weeks ago.
So my questions are:
1) does oil coming out of the pickup cover indicate a wet sump. If not, what does?
2) if this is a wet sump, how much effort is required to fix it. Can a wet sump be fixed by the removal of the timing cover and replacement of the oil pump or is a total teardown in order?
From: Peter Aslan
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:32:11 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 20 Dec 1994, Brendan Murphy wrote:
[Snip]
> So my questions are:
>
> 1) does oil coming out of the pickup cover indicate a wet sump.
> If not, what does?
Indicates a faulty oil seal on the end of the Camshaft.
> 2) if this is a wet sump, how much effort is required to fix it.
> Can a wet sump be fixed by the removal of the timing cover and
> replacement of the oil pump or is a total teardown in order?
Wet Sumping is part of the charm and character of a British Bike, but that doesn't mean its a big problem, not in this case anyhow. Just remember to run the engine for 10 Minutes or so before you check the oil level.
Regards Captain Norton.
From: Brendan Murphy
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 10:22:52 -0800
Would an oil saturated ignition pickup (5PU) still function properly?
From: Latte' Jed
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 14:11 EST
[Snip]
>
> So my questions are:
>
> 1) does oil coming out of the pickup cover indicate a wet sump.
> If not, what does?
> 2) if this is a wet sump, how much effort is required to fix it.
> Can a wet sump be fixed by the removal of the timing cover and
> replacement of the oil pump or is a total teardown in order?
Any idea what kind of bike it is?
'wet sumping' is when oil collects in the crankcase, assuming it's supposed to collect in the oil tank. If it's wet sumping when the thing's running it means your oil pump is shot and you probably need a new engine. If it's wet sumping when it's sitting it means a valve in the oil pump isn't seating right, or that the pump is worn, depending on the type of pump and make of bike. It just sounds like your camshaft seal is shot. It can probable be replaced without a total teardown.
From: Peter Snidal
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 14:53:33 -0800 (PST)
I had to send my upload as an attached file, so this may end up looking like a bank message. Two things I'd like to comment on:
1. Wet Sumping
Saw a little bad advice there about wet sumping. Here's my feeling on the matter:
a) You have to bear in mind that a dry-sump engine has _two_ oil pumps. The pressure pump, which supplies oil from the tank to the right places, and the Scavenge pump, which pulls the oil which has done its job back to the tank. (And usually the rocker shafts, since these were not deemed to require full pressure>) Consequently, failure, or partial failure, of the scavenge pump to return the oil delivered by the pressure pump and subsequently dropped to the bottom of the case (the sump, old boy) is no indication of anything being amiss with the moving parts. In fact, if the moving parts were not being lubricated, due to failure of the pressure pump, it wouldn't matter if the scavenge pump were working or not, there still wouldn't be too much oil in the base, now, would there?
b) The points drive shaft seal is not designed to handle the kind of oil pressure which is going to result when the case gets full of oil due to failure of the scavenge pump Just imagine those pistons running up and down into a case half full (or worse) of oil, which is also being hurled about by the flywheels. So, if wet sumping is your problem, of course you're going to have oil in your points cover. The seal probably doesn't need any attention at all, once you give it a break and return it to its regular job - keeping oil vapor out of the points.
c) The pumps are probably piston type. There will be two cylinders in a single two-compartment pump. The bigger one will be the scavenge pump. Taking it apart and looking at it will tell you how it works. The check valves are obviously important; without them, the oil would just squish back and forth without going anywhere. A good example of how AC doesn't work like DC. But in hydraulic systems, it don't work at all. The little ball-and-spring check valves are what keep the oil flowing in one direction only. If they don't work, it has to be because the spring has broken or lost its tension, or because the ball is no longer seating properly on its seat. This is a common problem with Triumphs, and is easily remedied by taking putting the ball in its seat, and giving it a good tap with a #1 hammer. (With a "soft metal drift" in between them, of course. Or an old 5/16 bolt.) Then, you put it together, and give it a try.
d) Checking the operation of the oil pumps: Every motorcycle I've ever seen has the oil return pipe extended up into the oil filler cap hole. This is so you can check operation of the scavenge pump by looking in the hole with the bike running. You will usually see a stream of oil returning from the sump. If it's just blowing bubbles, you can assume it's a pressure pump problem. If it isn't blowing anything, it may be that there's no oil down there to pump (pressure pump problem), or that the scavenge pump isn't working.
Every owner's manual I've ever read makes a point of telling you to check oil return every time you start the bike. I do every time I start one that hasn't been running for a while.
Triumph has an electrical switch screwed into the main oil gallery so they can install an idiot light on the headlight, where you can never see if it's on or not anyway, except in the dark. Either way, the problem I have with idiot lights is that they have to be set to show too low pressure at idle. So what good is this thing when you're buzzing along up a bad hill in the desert at 110 degrees and/or mph, and the pressure drops to 10 psi? None. You can buy a really neat little oil pressure gauge with a diameter of about 1 1/4 in., that screws into the hole left when you delucasize this particular piece of madness. You then have to stand up, lean forward over the bars, and look down to see this thing, (which you have of course cleverly installed upside down) but it's a winner for keeping track of what's happening in pressureland. If things get ugly in scavengeland, you'll find out by the motor getting smokey as hell, then sluggish, then stopping, apparently, as your point fill up full of oil. Nice safety, there, Joe. Just another reason to say No to Boyer.
I can't tell you where to get these pressure gauges. They're US made, and stealable from Pulp Mills. Ask your friendly local millwright. It helps to do a little work on his scoot for him from time to time first.
And, just another word about the Tri Tank Rack Faq:
Mike appears to be riding a Norton with nothing forward of the seat. Or of the gas tank; it's not clear which. Either way, it's an interesting picture. And as for Triumph dropping the rack the day the blue paper started flying, I can imagine that blind justice would interpret this as an admission of guilt, alright, the law being the' ass it is and all. But _I_ would interpret it as a way to avoid more blue paper. When the fleagles start showing up, it don't matter whose right or wrong, just who has the biggest contingency fund for paying fleagles.
(Interesting word, that. I would speculate on the following entomology: from flea, a parasite. And working somehow on the phrase Legal Eagle, which itself must have been derived as an opposite to Sick Bird, which everyone knows was Mad Magazine slang for Ill Eagle. I dunno)
And I _still_ say that Tri's only downfall was being the only manufacturer to have something different up there. You can't sue some body for being the only manufacturer with mirrors, steering dampners, bars, levers, (although ball-end levers sure hit with a bang all of a sudden, about 1957.), footrest, etc., but if you're lookin' for a hook, a gimmick, a schtik, a routine, why, there it is!
BTW, I rode two different rack-equipped Tri's in the '60's in Enduros, X-Countries, and if that doesn't seem silly enough, in Trials, God Help Us All. (One of the reasons why my body is now a barometer.) And I took the tank rack off of both of them. It was only four screws. But I think it was for weight more than because I thought it might hurt me some day.
Anyway, nothing personal, Mike. I think we have each expounded an opposite point of view: that of the justice freak vs that of the legal professional. It was fun. Have a merry Christmas, a Prosperous (ahem) New Year, and if you see a tank with a rack that'll fit my '69 TR6, let me know. I have missed that old rack, and always wondered why they took it off by '69.
From: Bob Cram
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 13:05:52 +0000
Yesterday I changed my oil in my 72 Triumph Bonneville (oil-in-frame) after a ride to warm the bike up. I removed the sump drain bolt first and only got a bit of oil out of it, a cup at most. This worried me, but when I removed the oil tank drain bolt, there was loads of oil. Nonetheless, I have never had this happen before, and it got me wondering if I have some sort of problem with my oil pump. It seems to me there should be more oil in the sump. Any advice?
From: GNBII
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 17:24:22 EDT
>>>>>>>>>>>
Bob.Cram@usask.ca writes:
Yesterday I changed my oil in my 72 Triumph Bonneville (oil-in-frame)
after a
ride to warm the bike up. I removed the sump drain bolt first and only
got a
bit of oil out of it, a cup at most. This worried me, but when I removed
the
oil tank drain bolt, there was loads of oil. Nonetheless, I have never
had
this
happen before, and it got me wondering if I have some sort of problem
with my
oil pump. It seems to me there should be more oil in the sump. Any
advice?
<<<<<<<<<<
All is well Bob. This is why they call it a Dry Sump engine. The scavenge side usually works at 2x the pump side, and because you warmed the bike first, and apparently fairly well, the oil was all back in the frame. Probably in the past you hadn't warmed the bike sufficiently to return the oil from its wetsumping trip back to the frame.
Bewley/Atlanta
From: PMGL0928
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 09:20 EST
Bob Cram <Bob.Cram@usask.ca> writes:
>Yesterday I changed my oil in my 72 Triumph Bonneville (oil-in-frame)
after a
>ride to warm the bike up. I removed the sump drain bolt first and
only got a
>bit of oil out of it, a cup at most. This worried me, but when I removed
the
>oil tank drain bolt, there was loads of oil. Nonetheless, I have never
had
>this happen before, and it got me wondering if I have some sort of
problem
>with my oil pump. It seems to me there should be more oil in the sump.
Any
>advice?
Yes, you may have a problem with your oil pump, but the problem is you *DID* get oil out of the sump, not that you didn't. Nearly all of your oil should reside in the tank (frame), not the engine's sump. Particularly right after it's been running.
The most I've ever got out my 71 Bonneville's sump is a couple of tablespoons, and that's if it's been sitting for a few weeks (the oil can sneak back into the sump through the oil pump.
I'd recommend pulling you oil pump and re-seating the check balls with a brass drift punch. This will help the pump scavenge the sump better.
From: George Kozak
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 08:13:34 PDT
Hi Bob,
A cup of oil in the sump sounds about right. You should be concerned if you have more than that, since it would indicate that your engine was wet sumping. I have a 79 Bonneville, and the factory manual for that model states that anything *more* than (if memory serves) 200cc in the sump is a problem. When you drained your oil previously, had the bike been sitting for a while? If so, that would explain why you had more oil in the sump then. Oil will tend to leak from the oil reservoir past the ball and spring valve and into the engine over time.
The scavenge pump normally will pull this excess sump oil out of the engine when the bike is started. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you see that oil is returning back into the tank when the engine is running, you can assume that the return side of your oil pump is OK.
George
From: Rick Cording
Date: 14 Oct 1994 09:20:16 U
Mail*Link(r) SMTP Wet Sumping
We had a thread a couple of weeks ago re: Triumph oil pump. Question: both my Norton's ('63 / '73) wet sump after sitting, am I causing damage by starting them up and letting oil return to tank? I've heard differing opinions on this, some say ok, others say dump the sump oil and add fresh to tank. Well?
Rick
From: Tony Sumner
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 10:39:26 BST
Bob Cram <Bob.Cram@usask.ca> wrote:
>Yesterday I changed my oil in my 72 Triumph Bonneville (oil-in-frame)
>after a ride to warm the bike up. I removed the sump drain bolt first
>and only got a bit of oil out of it, a cup at most. This worried me,
>but when I removed the oil tank drain bolt, there was loads of oil.
>Nonetheless, I have never had this happen before, and it got me
>wondering if I have some sort of problem with my oil pump. It seems
>to me there should be more oil in the sump. Any advice?
Obviously you need to fit a Mk II or earlier Commando lubrication system. This will solve your problem :-)
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 16:44:26 +0200
>We had a thread a couple of weeks ago re: Triumph oil pump. Question:
>both my Norton's ('63 / '73) wet sump after sitting, am I causing
damage
>by starting them up and letting oil return to tank? I've heard
>differing opinions on this, some say ok, others say dump the sump
oil
>and add fresh to tank. Well?
My '57 SpeedTwin wetsumps about 10cl after standing unused for a while(weeks).
There's never more than about this amount in the sump, however. To the
point: It pukes it on the floor as soon as it is started, and so never
returns to the oil tank. The oil spews out from this plastic tube (1" garden
hose 50mm long) coming from a hole in the crankcase and *looks* like some
overflow gadget. Question : Is this normal behavior? Or is this public
urinating a symptom of some illness.....
Espen
From: Wayne S. Bratt
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:00:33 PDT
> We had a thread a couple of weeks ago re: Triumph oil pump. Question:
> both my Norton's ('63 / '73) wet sump after sitting, am I causing
damage by
> starting them up and letting oil return to tank? I've heard differing
> opinions on this, some say ok, others say dump the sump oil and add
fresh to
> tank. Well?
>
> Rick
I suspect this will generate a lot of "differing opinions" here also, guess I'll throw in my $.02.
I have four Norton's, three of which drain their oil tanks in about a week and a half (the fourth would too I'm sure if I ever get it to the point where I can put oil in it!). My criteria is less concern for the oil in the sump, but rather concern for whether there is any left in the tank. I always check in the oil tank before cranking up, if the oil is still over the mesh feed tube I go ahead, if not I drain the sump and refill. I am not comfortable with a (partial) plain bearing motor spinning over without oil to feed the rod bearings. On the other hand I know a number of people that regularly cranked their Commandos up without bothering to look at anything, no immediate problems resulted (who knows about long term though!)
I remember a letter (I think in Classic Bike) from Art Sirota, he claimed that leaving the bike sit with the engine turned over to the compression stroke helped minimize wet sumping. I have tried this, with inconclusive results. I have never had a Norton lower end apart (top ends countless times unfortunately!), so I don't know what this exercise does exactly.
Given that the oil is feeding OK from the tank, does anyone have any comments/experiences about problems from residual oil left in the sump? (Assuming, of course, that no additional oil has been added, but then, who would make such a stupid mistake ?? ;-) )
Wayne
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 02:39:15 -0400
I.
>In accounts of engine balancing, I don't recall any mention of
>the need to balance the goodies that attach to the ends of the
>crankshaft such as the rotor, engine sprocket, and timing pinion
>(Commando). They would appear be components of rotating weight
>that would effect the balance factor.
>All of the items you mention are symmetrical and of very small
>(relatively) diameter, therefore should affect balance to a very
>small degree, no?
Another trick is ensuring that the left and right side of the engine are the same: i.e., the two pistons should weigh the same, the rods (also both top and both bottom ends) should weigh the same, and if possible the two combustion chambers should be cc'd to ensure they have the same volume. These things don't affect engine balance technically, but do affects vibration , which is the reason we give a damn about balance.
II.
>I have four Norton's, three of which drain their oil tanks in
>about a week and a half (the fourth would too I'm sure if I ever
>get it to the point where I can put oil in it!)
My 750 will go the whole winter without draining more than a few ounces, and I'm using multigrade oil. It sounds like you need to lap the oil pump to take up the slop in the gears [or, rather, you need to lap 4 oil pumps!] This is a quick and easy repair that's explained in most of the shop manuals. Hardest part is getting the pump out, which requires the timing cover to come off. Make a not of it for the next time you adjust your timing chain.
Gear-type pumps [Norton/BSA] always start to ooze sooner or later, and need this maintenance, but they're much superior in oil delivery to plunger-type pumps [Triumph], which deliver oil in spurts, unlike the way the engine needs it. That's why few engines use plunger pumps anymore, despite their better wet-sumping manners.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
23.3 Wetsumping Non-Return Valves
From: Peter Azlan
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 09:06:53 GMT
We all know what wet sumping is, right.
Dry sump engine, left standing, oil drains down from the tank past the Oil Pump and fills up the sump, no big problem, a few minutes after the engine starts it pumps all the oil back to the tank and clears the sump, right.
Well, some people have been known to fit 'non-return-valves' to the oil lines to stop the Oil draining down, so they don't have to worry about measuring the oil in the tank after the engines been running for a bit.
Anyhow, enough of the introduction, the following note appears in 'Roadholder' the UK NOC Club Mag, and is reproduced here for your information:
>Jem Nicholls Said:
>You may have seen some reports in the motorcycling press about engine
>failures which have been attributed to the use of Non Return Valves.
>The reason put forward is worth explaining: when a NRV is fitted into
>the Oil supply line, oil below the valve can still drain out of the
>pipe past the oil pump, leaving an air lock in the pipe. Upon starting
>the engine, the oil pump (which may already be worn hence the fitting
>of the NRV in the first place) may not develop enough 'suck' to open
>the valve resulting in no flow of oil and an engine seizure. The
>factory fitted valve in the Mk3 commando is different, as it is sited
>on the delivery side of the oil pump in the timing chest.
>Modern multigrade oils will tend to leak past a pump more readily
than
>the straight monogrades originally specified as multigrades are
>designed to be thin when cold. It's worth also mentioning that the
only
>way that an air lock can form is if air can get into the pipe. Close
>attention should be paid to oil pipe joints and fittings. A Joint
which
>does not leak any appreciable quantity of oil may yet allow sufficient
>small quantities of air to enter the pipe thus enabling the above
>scenario to take place. Not as simple a situation as might first
>appear.
>
>The Valve marketed by the NOC and several Norton dealers is a direct
>copy of the Velocette item and theirs was fitted into the oil line
too,
>so it would be good to hear from any Velocette Owners out there.
>
>The NOC has received letters from people who have purchased the NOC
>valve and they are very happy with its performance.
>
>I include the above in order to provide a balanced picture from which
>you can make your own decision when considering this particular
>modification.
Regards Captain Norton.