From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 16:48:52 +0200
>As always, the original alternator (RM21 as I recall) has a puny output
at
>lower speeds, barely keeping the battery charged if the headlight
is run,
>and freezing the turn signals when slow. I was reading in the maintenance
>manual that the RM24 (newer alternator) was designed to improve low
speed
>output. Is this a drop-in replacement for mine? Anyone done an alt
>replacement :) ? Idea on $$? Suggestions on solving this problem
>appreciated - I'm handy with normal work, but certainly not a Triumph
>expert or familiar with the best sources.
I've changed the old 6V alt. for a new 12V, 180W 'high output' one. Don't know if it's the RM24, but it says in the manual that came with the kit that the rotor/stator fits right in the old setup. This alternator was meant to go on newer Tiger/Bonnie/Daytona models so it is probably the one you're after. You will have to change the rectifier. With the new alternator comes an old -fashioned selenium one. Scrap it and get a silicon bridge instead (- $5). The increased power requires a matched pair of zeners. The ones that came with *my* kit opened at 13V. This is not enough to carge the battery here in our cold climate, so I scrapped them and the bike is running just fine without. It is indeed improved over the old one to gaet better charging at low rpm. (top is at 2400 methinks)
The kit cost me NOK 1900 ($ 250) imported from UK. I had to make an adapter plate to make it fit my '57 SpeedTwin, but that is another (long) story.
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 94 01:58:17 EDT
> It turns out that the owner had hooked up an alternator system
>(VW maybe? and now had tons o' juice. The horn could even be heard.
>
> Has any brit-ironers done this sort of thing?
>
>Ah yes, but were Vinnies not belt-driven Miller Electrics? The old
>belt-drive gives one a lot of room, if one doesn't mind how ugly it
looks.
I used to own a VW Beetle, and hope to get a Ghia someday [air cooled, y'know], and as I recall, the VW alternator was pretty damn big. In Classic Bike, when people adapt car stuff to bikes, it's usually the Mini they cannibalize, which I gather must live up to its name. Is there a car alternator small enough to fit in the space on a Norton engine that was originally intended for a magneto? This could be run off the gears and chains designed to operate the mag, and neither a belt nor a change to the engine case would be needed.
Alternatively, and perhaps more practical, are there any Japanese rotors
and stators of a suitable size to replace the Lucas components on a British
engine? These would presumably be unburstable (unlike the originals) and
probably of higher power. It would be easier to make an adapter for a hole
too big than bore a rotor too small, but something could be worked out.
If anyone knows the sizes of rotors/stators of major Japanese brands, how
about posting it?
-------------
>Can't say a to Triumphs, but for Norton I have long found
>the NGK BP7ES superior to Champion plugs in every way.
Maybe I'm too innocent, but I've been using Champion N7YC plugs without exception since I got my Commando, just like they say in the book, and it ever occurred to me that plugs in the same size and heat-range were otherwise than fungible. What are the characteristics that make one plug superior to another? Better spark? Resistance to fouling? More carefully formed threads?
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Bob Cram
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:09:50 +0000
Mike Taglieri writes:
>Alternatively, and perhaps more practical, are there any Japanese
rotors
>and stators of a suitable size to replace the Lucas components on
a
>British engine? These would presumably be unburstable (unlike the
>originals) and probably of higher power. It would be easier to make
>an adapter for a hole too big than bore a rotor too small, but something
>could be worked out. If anyone knows the sizes of rotors/stators of
>major Japanese brands, how about posting it?"
I don't know the answer, but the most recent issue of International Bike Journal, in its Readers Rides section, had a brief description of how a motorcycle mechanic had upgraded his Triumph (a T100C I think) to a Boyer ignition and some Honda electrics, including a Honda rectifier and coils. He said he'd never had an electrical problem since.
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 94 16:05:31 +0200
>> It turns out that the owner had hooked up an alternator system (VW
maybe?)
>> and now had tons o' juice. The horn could even be heard.
>>
>> Has any brit-ironers done this sort of thing?
Yep.... but with a so called High-power Lucas item (180 W)
>Alternatively, and perhaps more practical, are there any Japanese rotors
and
>stators of a suitable size to replace the Lucas components on a British
>engine? These would presumably be unburstable (unlike the originals)
and
>probably of higher power. It would be easier to make an adapter for
a hole
>too big than bore a rotor too small, but something could be worked
out. If
>anyone knows the sizes of rotors/stators of major Japanese brands,
how about
>posting it?
>-------------
Why not use the Lucas one? 180 W is 15A @ 12V which should be more than sufficient. The problem on my kit was that damned Lucas zener diode they sent with the kit. It opened at 13 V and that was not sufficient. So: Snip-snip no more diode, lots of current -a bit too much actually, but as we have to drive with the light on at all times here in Norway it works perfectly.
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: Oliver Motz
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 11:55:25 +0100
Hi!
Maybe most of you know this already, but for the ones who do not, the following may be of interest.
In Germany bikes do have to have the headlights on. As long as the original bulbs (45 W) are fitted and the RM 21 (Lucas part no. 47205) alternator _and_ the rotor are in good shape it is OK and the battery will be charged sufficiently. (BTW: speaking only of a 12 Volt system.)
The rectifier and Zener Diode usually work well with this system though a solid state rectifier would be the better alternative.
The RM21 alternator will deliver 100 W or maybe up to 120 W with a sound modern rotor, at 3,000 rpm. A rotor in poor condition will reduce this output drastically. The RM23 alternator has a higher output, 180 W at 7,000 rpm and it still gives a very useful gain at low town speeds of 140 W at 3,000 rpm. It was fitted as original equipment on the Mk III Norton Commando from 1975-78 and the Triumph TR6 Thunderbird from 1981. This higher output means an alteration in the charge control department, in that two zener diodes must be used, and the rectifier connections altered to accommodate this. This is the circuit used on the Mk III Norton and incorporates a half-wave rectifier (Lucas part no. 49181), very similar in appearance to the normal Lucas black plate job. But there is no need to stick to this configuration, as the normal rectifier or an encapsulated alternative can be used.
The latest stator from Lucas is the three phase RM24. It was only fitted as standard from 1981 in high-output form and 1979 in low-output form to Meriden Triumphs. However the high-output type is available in component form and will fit any British motorcycle previously fitted with a Lucas alternator (except the early 6 volt units such as the RM13, RM14 and RM15 types which have rotors of 70mm dia. as opposed to the 74mm rotor of the RM19 and later types).
The high-output version gives 155W at 3,000 rpm and 180W at 7,000 rpm. It has a different charge control and rectifier from other types. In this case, there are a pair of zener diodes connected in parallel. The zeners must be a matched pair and the lengts of wiring to them and its type is important.
The rectifier also differs in that it is a three-phase unit similar to that used with car alternators. Triumph used yet another charge control by having a three-zener pack incorporated within the rectifier circuit. A single zener was fitted on 1979-80 models with the low-output (10.5 amp maximum) three-phase unit.
For many years Lucas alternators used the familiar black circular plate rectifier, which is electrically quite reliable but mechanically not quite so good. If British weather doesn't get it, some ham-handed spanner-wielder will. In these days of electronic wizardy and reliability, there are encapsulated rectifiers available that are even more robust electrically, extremely tough mechanically, and cheaper.
The encapsulated device has another advantage in that you can wire it to either a positive or negative earth (although there are Lucas rectifiers with negative and positive versions for ground). Negative earth zeners are also available if some wishes to covert for an alarm system or so, since most of these devices are for negative ground nowadays.
If you have a 12 volt system then the rectifier will absorb in the order of 12W, the ignition (whether electronic or points) about 20W, side, rear and instrument lights 15W, headlight 45 or 60W, and then there's the intermittent load of a stop light and directional winkers if fitted. This might leave less than 20W at 2 amps at low town speeds to charge the battery - with a poor rotor you could be left in the dark!
Since you have to put the headlight on during daylight in Germany you might even be lost if the rotor of your single phase alternator is in good condition. You are lost if you have fitted a H4 bulb! That's why most riders have fitted a RM24 high-output alternator to their Brit bike. But often problems with this system arise. The black circular plate rectifier is not robust at all and the two zeners are often not matched. Thus if you speed at high revs theres so much current produced that first one zener will be blown and then the other. This has happened a few times and so I looked for a possibility of a solid electronic regulator.
The first one I tried and the only one that was available then was an electronic regulator from a Hesketh. It worked well but its measurements were vast: l=120mm, w=65mm, h=55mm, weight: 250 grams.To huge for a cafe racer. But it's the only one with a charging control light and it is not encapsulated. It can be wired to either a positive or negative earth.
Then I tried an encapsulated one from Tympanium Corporation which I got from MAP Cycle in St. Petersburg, FL. It was a neat one in a polished alloy case with fins. It only worked with negative earth but I had changed to neg. ground anyway. Price in 1988 was 65 US$.
Since I wanted to run without battery (I had fitted the battery behind the gearbox, not a good place for maintaining the battery) I looked for an electronic regulator with condensor. At a US firm (sorry, I have forgotten its name) I found the Mity Max regulator, a huge and heavy thing which i fitted behind the gearbox. Measurements: l=80mm, w=72mm, h= 38mm, weight: 350 grams, encapsulated.
Wiring to either a positive or negative earth.
I found out that it was not possible to kickstart the engine without battery because of the Boyer ignition. The Boyer ignition needs about 0.8 amps to be started and thus I fitted the smallest dry battery available, a 12v 1.2 ah from Hitachi which I fitted into the buckle of the single racing seat. I needed the battery just for starting the engine. At low revs. the engine ticked over without battery, but when I turned on the headlight (65W H4) I had to rev at 2,000 rpm at least. So the condensor made no sense with a Boyer. (It isn't the case with points.)
One day the Mity Max blew and I do not know why. Since I couldn't get the Tympanium regulator from MAP I looked for another neat alternative. I took a look at the encapsulted regulators from Boyer, but they are huge, heavy and ugly. Measurements l=92mm (mountings in mild steel) l=54mm (box), w=92mm, h=73mm, weight: 500 grams. Wiring to either a positive or negative earth.
Then I took a look at the neat and tiny electronic regulators from japanese bikes. I went to japanese bike shops, searched a lot in Workshop manuals and at last I found two regulators which fit the RM24 alternator.
The first one is fitted to a Honda 400N, 400T and CX 500. Its type is Shindengen SH 232-12. Its three yellow wires go to the three alternator cables, the red/white cable is positive and the black one is negative, e.g. that it can be used either for neg. or pos. ground.
The other one is from a Kawasaki KZ 750 E1 , H1 and from a Z550. Its type is Shindengen SH 530-12. The three yellow cables go to the alternator, red/white and brown cable are positive (red/white to battery positive terminal, brown cable to wiring loom, positive, e.g. that these two cables should be connected) and black cable is negative, e.g. that this regulator, too, can be used either for neg. or pos. ground.
These regulators from Shindengen are tiny, neat, encapsulated in a small housing with fins (2/3 in size of a cigarette box) and IMHO the best ones for RM24 alternators and Brit Bikes. You can get them at low prices (about 100 Deutsch-Marks = 65 US$) at autojumbles or used parts supplies for japanese bikes. They work well, are absolutely reliable and I will never use any other.
Let me close with a few further remarks:
You need not to switch to electronic regulators of you single phase unit is OK. The zener diode and a solid state regulator work well as long as the rotor is in good shape. If you need more power, then you should fit the RM24 high-output stator and fit the Shindengen regulator instead of the two or three zeners and the circular plate rectifier (an electronic regulator does the job of the rectifier and the zeners, e.g. it rectifiers and regulates the voltage). It is advisable to fit the welded rotor which was fitted to the late Norton Commandos (Lucas part no. 54201143 or 54212298) since the inner sleeve of the earlier rotors sometimes get loose and seize with the stator and cause heavy engine breakdowns. BTW Lucas part no. of the high-output three-phase RM24 stator is 47244.
The RM19 stator (Lucas part no. 47204) can be used for 6v and 12v systems. It has three cables which does not mean it is a three-phase stator. For 6v usage the wires are connected up for charge control via switching by the lighting switch. By connecting the green/yellow wire to the green/black, leaving the common green/white wire alone it is converted to a output for 12 volt.
The green/white, green/yellow, and green/black wiring colours were originally initiated to identify the difference between the wires, but when the three-phase alternator appeared, Lucas in their wisdom stuck to the same colours, even though thre is no need for identification with this unit: three wired of the same colour would have saved some confusion. So if you fit an electronic regulator, connect these three wires to the three yellow ones from the electronic regulator.
Hoping this was not too boring...
Cheers, Oliver
Live fast, ride hard, die young
... and never forget:
BIKE BRITISH !
**************************************************
Oliver Motz c/o FTK, Dortmund, Germany
Riding:
NORTON Atlas 750 Cafe Racer 1966
TRIUMPH Trophy 900 1994
Rode & experienced with:
TRIUMPH T110 650 Bathtub 1960
BSA A 65 Lightning 1969
BMW R 75/5 1973
BENELLI Tornado 650 1972
MOTO MORINI 3 1/3 Sport 1973
***************************************************
From: Bob Cram
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 19:00:33 +0000
I have noticed that when I put my battery on its monthly charge over the winter that I have trouble getting a specific gravity much above 1235 using a standard battery hydrometer. A friend suggested that the batteries are so small on these older British bikes that I am probably not getting enough battery acid into the hydrometer to get an accurate reading.
If this is correct, then I may be in danger of overcharging my battery and damaging it that way. That is, if I leave it charging for a long time trying to get it up to about 1260, where it is supposed to be, but the hydrometer will never read higher than 1235 because of a lack of battery acid, then I have a problem.
Does anyone have any advice/comments/suggestions?
Bob Cram
1972 Bonneville
From: Gregg Kricorissian
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 09:50:24 EST
RE: Bob Cram's query on battery charging.
My experience is that small motorcycle batteries are very finicky,
and very easy to destroy with overcharging. Normal car battery chargers
are brutal,and even a 2 amp trickle charger may prove to be too much. Easiest
checkduring charging is to see whether the battery is warm to the touch.
Heatbuild up inside the battery is bad because it can cause the lead plates
to buckle and short out. If the battery feels that its getting too warm,
disconnect it, and let it cool down. Watch it carefully, and better yet,use
a smaller charger.
The Specific Gravity (SG) of the electrolyte is a good way to determine a charged cell, but it could be that your hydrometer is out of calibration. Thus, your best bet is to rely on it only for comparative measurements among the cells unless you can verify its readings. (Hwever, I can't see how the small size of the battery could affect the SG readings, as long as you have snuffled up enough electrolyte to float the bobber...)
The other problem I've run into is electrolyte of the wrong SG from day-one. This happened on a *new* battery I bought for my Lotus, and which never, ever came up to the right SG. Neither did it have much poop or stamina. Draining and refilling it with new electrolyte didn't help, either: apparently that's bad news for the plates because of the higher acid concentration.
I suggest you use a very small charger, 1 amp or less. Check that all cells measure near equal in SG after the battery has been charged over night. Then, check the capacity of the battery by leaving the lights on until they dim noticeably, and then compare SG's again. The length of time it takes for the lights to dim, and the existence individual cells that now show low SG should give you a good idea on the health of the battery.
...Gregg
From: Peter Snidal
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 20:32:25 -0700 (PDT)
> V == 5 speed transmission....
> I just finished fiddling with mine and found that new clutch plates
and
> the correct primary chain tension (~3/8 play) allows me to get into
> neutral while stopped....looks like ANY clutch drag prevents this
> rather simple and necessary function....
The Reply is a little screwed up, but here's what needs to be said:
You slide the sucker into neutral as you blithely coast up to the red light or whatever. You don't even need a clutch. You just wait till it gets to that point in 1st gear, just before the halt, when the motor isn't puching the bike, and the bike isn't pushing the motor. At that point the gentle pressure upward on the gear lever, which you don't even realize you;'re applying, will result in it slipping into neutral
Gawd! Can anybody in here ride a dam motorcycle???????
>
> to use as a replacement... 13v @25w according to lucas.
>
> Zener Diodes are OLD OLD OLD technology. The burn up extra watts
as a means of voltage regulation.
The Real Way to do it, for some time now, is the Three Wire Regulator. It's how it's done in every elevctronic thing you own. It does what you'd expect a regulator to do- presents a varying resistance, depending on the voltage it senses.
I don't have a number for a suitable one; I'm patiently waiting for somebody else to find out and put it on the net. With an ascii diagram.I'm not going to the trouble till I need one. And I haven't yet found a Lucas alternator that produces a high enough lights-on voltage to use one.
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 12:48:19 EDT
From: John Pinkham
Notice that Boyer makes a PowerBox that replaces the zener diode and rectifier and 2MC capacitor. It's available for single or 3 phase alternator. No battery is required. Costs about 50 UKP. Also available for Commando is a high output three phase alternator. This costs around 70 UKP.
Any satisfied/disgruntled PowerBoxers out there?
Any 3 phasers ?
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 10:03:27 PDT
> > V == 5 speed transmission....
> > I just finished fiddling with mine and found that new clutch plates
and
> > the correct primary chain tension (~3/8 play) allows me to get
into
> > neutral while stopped....looks like ANY clutch drag prevents this
> > rather simple and necessary function....
>
> The Reply is a little screwed up, but here's what needs to be said:
>
> You slide the sucker into neutral as you blithely coast up to the
> red light or whatever. You don't even need a clutch. You just wait
till
> it gets to that point in 1st gear, just before the halt, when the
motor
> isn't puching the bike, and the bike isn't pushing the motor. At
that
> point the gentle pressure upward on the gear lever, which you don't
even
> realize you;'re applying, will result in it slipping into neutral
>
> Gawd! Can anybody in here ride a dam motorcycle???????
Well, that is exactly what I did up until the time when I took the dam (sic) clutch apart, replaced the driven plates, and adjusted the springs and chain...again. Now it drops into neutral like a Yamaheimer....we'll see how it runs in. Your technique is wonderful, until you make a quick stop, have to wait a long time to get started, and have the durn springs wound into the clutch basket a turn or two too much. My lift wrist did get stronger, but you should have seen me take off on the Norton the first time I switched back....and I used to think Edward's clutch was heavy....
> >
> > to use as a replacement... 13v @25w according to lucas.
> >
> > Zener Diodes are OLD OLD OLD technology. The burn up extra watts
> as a means of voltage regulation.
>
> The Real Way to do it, for some time now, is the Three Wire Regulator.
> It's how it's done in every elevctronic thing you own. It does what
> you'd expect a regulator to do- presents a varying resistance, depending
> on the voltage it senses.
>
> I don't have a number for a suitable one; I'm patiently waiting for
> somebody else to find out and put it on the net. With an ascii diagram.
> I'm not going to the trouble till I need one. And I haven't yet found
a
> Lucas alternator that produces a high enough lights-on voltage to
use one.
>
>
A little thought experiment.... the zener shunt 'regulator' dumps the
full amperage to ground only when the voltage excedes the limit. The series
(3-wire) regulator disapates heat all the time, but only at the amperage
being drawn by the electrical system times the voltage drop needed. Given
that it's a good idea to run with your lights on, your system is sucking
down nearly the output of the standard alternator (120w or so) ...60w to
headlamp, 50w to ignition, god knows (maybe 20w?) to the tail-light...
the shunt will probably never conduct, it's there for protection in those
unusual situations. The series will always be sitting there with it's .75vu
diode drop, so you are always loseing some power, especially running at
low revs it would be noticable.
Making a series regulator out of a 20-25A 200W rated PNP transistor and a small 12v .5W zener should be pretty easy. Just remember to heatsink that transisor...it's gonna be the fuse for your charging system....
Off the top of my head the circuit (for a positive ground) should be:
-V -------------------------+------------+
(from alternator/rectifier) |
|
/ |
\ 100 |
/ ohms |
\ |
| |
| /
| /
+---------| PNP
| ^
| \
_l_ |
V zener +------ -v (load to motorcycle)
/-/
|
+-------------------- +V (frame)
MS
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 19:38:50 BST
From: mason@ftp.com (Latte' Jed)
> Notice that Boyer makes a PowerBox that replaces the zener diode and
> rectifier and 2MC capacitor. It's available for single or 3 phase
> alternator. No battery is required. Costs about 50 UKP. Also available
> for Commando is a high output three phase alternator. This costs
around 70
> UKP.
I put a Mity-Max on every britbike everytime the electrics go south (which means all of them). Good unit, sounds like the same thing. In theory it gives increased HP, it doesn't turn the alternators extra power into heat. The give the ability to run batteryless as well, unless you're running an electronic ignition - it doesn't give enough voltage at tickover to run an electronic setup, but points are fine. I suspect that's where the the PowerBox comes in handy. If anyone tries it with a boyer ignition let us all know how it works.
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:13:29 CST
Does anyone know the value in mF (millifarads) for the battery eliminator capacitor? What voltage is it rated for? Is there anything special about it? Don't be afraid to be technical, I am an elec. eng. tech.. I tried to measure it's value but get no good readings. Could be mine is shot.
Rob
From: Clif Lines
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:54:47 -0600 (MDT)
On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Rob Brotherston wrote:
> Does anyone know the value in mF (millifarads) for the battery
> eliminator capacitor? What voltage is it rated for? Is there
> anything special about it? Don't be afraid to be technical, I am
an
> elec. eng. tech.. I tried to measure it's value but get no good
> readings. Could be mine is shot.
I've used a 2,000uf 25v electrolytic without any problems. Anything you find with at least these values should work fine.
Clif
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 09:21:54 PDT
From: John Kula
To: BRIT-IRO--INTERNET brit-iron@indiana.
> I've used a 2,000uf 25v electrolytic without any problems. Anything
>you find with at least these values should work fine.
The exact specs elude me now, but when I got the info a long time ago, I recall that the specs were on the order of _0.2_ uf!
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 9:46:00 PDT
Re, yesterdays electrical discussions....
I'll be damned, y'all say radioshack has high wattage zeners?? I'd better fortify myself up and go check. I don't suppose you can tell me how to explain what I want to the antenna-sales clerk?
The big blue Cap does look in the range of 2000mf and 25v should be fine and dandy. The ignition (points) condensers (as mechanics insist on calling them) are .2mf on my Bonneville (at a wild guess of better than 200v, because of the inductive kidkback they need to survive) so I would guess they are the same for most Lucas hacks.....
I found some .2mf 200v caps at my local surplus store, but havn't needed to try them out yet. Ah, for the days when tubes were king and you could just clip a few caps out of your parents TV chassis....
MS
From: DanCNY@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:08:52 -0400
It has surprised me on how difficult this question was to obtain an answer to the question of the difference between continuous vs standard amp rating. I spoke with electriclal engineers and read all the postings here.
Most folks admit to no understanding but one fellow seemed to know. At least his answer was the most authoritative.
A continous rated fuse is measured for both peak and continuous engergy flow.
The continous rating is the amount of energy a fuse will permit on a continual flow without over heating the internal element. The peak rating is just that the amps required to blow it instantly. The stock Norton fuse is rated at a a peak of 35 amps but a continuous rating of 17.5 amps.
According to this fellow the fuse rated only as 35 amps will definitely work but it won't last as one that's rated for 17.5 continuous amps as well.
From this I'm surmising that 20 amp fuses most folks use will work as well but may blow as the internal nears melting point. One fuse shows evidence of metal overheating, but it hasn't blown yet.
From: D.J. Walker
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:57:01 +0100 (BST)
Dear All,
It may seem pickey of me to say this, and I hope Espen isn't too much
annoyed if I draw issue with his saying:
> I doubt that the test is conclusive on the new high-power (RM24) rotors
as
> they are lighter than the old (RM17 ?) 6V ones. My old 6V unit didn't
> provide enough juice to keep the battery charged, so I changed it
to a 12
> unit. The magnetism in the new one was *much* stronger, but still
the old
> worn-out 6v magnet would *almost* stick to a screwdriver when lifted.
My
> guess is that the new, high-power ones can be lifted even if they
are bad.
RM24, is the Lucas code number for the stator, not the rotor.
The rotor will be a standard 74mm item. The other rotor, Espen refers to is the 70mm one, which was fitted to the RM18 6v stator (the one Espen junked, quite rightly - by all accounts they were useless).
The 74mm rotor is identical for every one of the alternators Lucas used and differ only in the timing marks cut onto the end-face. The stators are what provide the different outputs - these are as follows:
The RM19, a three wire job, which can be used either as 6v stator, or 12v (the latter is achieved by connecting the yellow and black wires together, and using as a two wire stator).
The RM21, a 2 wire 12v-only job. This is perhaps the commonest of the original stators to be found on Brits. It is also the most prone to low current output, when married to a slightly worn-out rotor. The fault lies with the rotor. Current should be 9Amps with one of these, if it isn't, suspect the rotor.
The RM23 is next. This is the last of the types that found their way onto the Commando (Mk3 models only). Normally this stator has only two wires, but there's a 3-wire version (again wire yelllow and black together and threat as 2-wire for use on Commandos). With a good rotor, this will produce 180Watts - single phase. To cope with the extra power when daylight riding, two Zenners can be used, I'm told, by wiring them up as part of the bridge rectifier. No, they won't be matched. I've never done it - I can't comment.
The Triumph Bonneville/T-bird was the only bike to see the last of Joe's stators - the RM24, 3 phase job. This comes in two forms, 132Watt (use with a single Zenner - this is what I've got) and a 180Watt type which needs more complicated control of its output. My mate Paul was this equipment fitted on his 1982 T-bird, so I think it's only to be found on really late Triumphs. I'm afraid I've never realy taken a look at it. Maybe someone else has a late Bonnie or Bird, and can explain what goes on? Despite the fact that the wires comming from the RM24 are different colours, there's no difference between them, just lash any two wires together and use it as a 2-wire stator, it doesn't care.
The Lucas Zenner diode is a simple item and, far as I know, hasn't changed throughout the time of the 74mm RM production run. They are rated at somewhere around 100Amps, I seem to recall. In my experience they work fine and last forever (assuming you don't break them).
As for the rotors; they differ only in the timing marks on the aluminium end-face. For instance, I'm currently running a rotor off a T160, into which I've cut my own timing mark. Previous to that, the bike ran it's original rotor - one of those funny ones that had two timing marks on it. You still find these on mid-70's Commandos (never have found out why there were two marks on those rotors - probably spare stock intended for some other bike). I was once told that a rotor tends to become somewhat suspect after about 5 years service. Like Espen, I seriously doubt whether this screwdriver-hanging test will work, all my screwdrivers seem to be magnetic, anyway.
As well as demagentization, in fact a more common problem than demagnetization, in my experience, is mechanical failure of the rotor itself. Two things can happen, and are common where the rotor has seen a lot of heat (for instance as a result of rubbing between the rotor and stator - all bikes should have an 8 thou clearance between rotor and stator all the way round). Firstly, the magnets can come lose, fly outwards and embed themselves in the plastic body of the stator - total lockup, fatal for the bike/potentially fatal for you. This is very easy to spot, however. Next, check for signs of the steel-inner sleeve (the bit that keys onto the crank) comming loose. Inspect the stator for rubbing. On a Commando, rubbing between the rotor and stator is characterized by a clearly audible high-pitched wirring noise, and sometimes a sharp whine, like a lathe cutting soft metal - this is in cases where the rotor body is loose enough to touch the timing quadrant fastened to the inside of the outer primary case. Again, rubbing acn be sufficient to heat the rotor up so that it either binds inside the stator and locks the engine, or allows the magnets to fly outwards and do the same thing. Bang.
74mm rotors should have a number on them, denoting the date of manufacture. What you want to look at is the last two didgits, these are the year.
If I've got anything wrong here, please put me straight, as I'm always keen to correct any errors in my infamous little book.
Incidentally, the 74mm rotor is very good at tripping the induction coils used to detect the presence of vehicles in different lanes, at the traffic lights. This may be a UK-only thing, but at traffic lights here, we have magnetic induction coils embedded into the road surface, just infront of the lights. These work by detecting the steel chasis of a car going over them, so that they know when there's a vehicle there waiting for the lights to change. In many cases they stay red unless they detect such a vehicle. This is very annoying if you're on a bike, since you're not big enough to trip the coils, especiaally if it has an alloy frame
My Suzuki GS 850 (a model of bike which was renowned for having a very weak alternator, may I point out) was useless in this respect. However, on the Commando, all I have to do is look out for the mastic overbanding that covers the coils as I approach the lights, and blip the throttle as I pass over them. Bang - the lights change straight away - no hesitation. I reckon dear old Joey's rotor must look to them like a Challenger main battle tank fully laden with depleted Uranium ammunition, approaching at full throttle and with extreme attitude! Perhaps we should rename him the Prince Of Traffic Lights?
Commando Dan
(By'eck! Look at all that writing - I do go on, don't I!)
P.S. Several Norton parts supliers have stated proudly that they can now "supply Norton Commando crankcase halves, new". Well, of course they can! It's Andover Norton who're making these crankcase halves! I dare say any Brit bike shop could supply them, if they put their mind to it. Your local hardware shop could do so. All they'd have to do is ring Andover Norton and say: "Can I have a pair of newly made crankcase halves, Please?" The cheek of these people amazes me! Anyway, I'll shut up, now.
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:15:07 CST
[edit, edit]
> I also have
> a capacitor that the workshop manual I have says will eliminate the
> need for a battery. Do they work? Wonder why bother with a battery
> ever if this thingie works? Lights flicker without it or something?
[chomp, munch]
> Tom Kimberly
I used the capacitor battery eliminator on my bike without a battery and was *very* unhappy with it. Bike stalled every time I hit the brakes with the headlight on. The capacitor was originally intended to provide an emergency start circuit if your battery calved.
The cap I had was possibly on it's way out (not long for this world) so others may have had better luck with this setup. I am changing back to battery power when the bike is rebuilt.
BTW, got another couple inches of snow again this morning. This is getting ridiculous...
Rob B.
Rob Brotherston C.E.T. '69 Bonniville (Fido)
Assiniboine Community College '86 Savage (Gone)
Elec Tech - ET&T
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
Ride Free Citizen! (Moto, Biker Mouse From Mars)
From: John Pinkham
Date: Wed, 3 May 95 6:56:55 PDT
John Pinkham asks:
> Anyone running a Boyer Powerbox and Boyer electronic ignition without
> a battery?
>
> I remember being told that the Boyer ignition must have a battery
for
> starting and that in a pinch even a flashlight battery would supply
enough
> current for starting.
John, I've discussed this with RGM and they said that it's absolute rubbish and balderdash. NO BATTERY IS NEEDED (with the Powerbox). This is fortunate, since there's no damn place to stick the Powerbox except in the battery box unless you wish to mount it exposed in a styling exercise.
The only disadvantage to the sans battery mode is that there will be no lighting unless the engine is running. This doesn't seem like such an important item.
Good Luck,
John Pinkham
From: Chuck Kichline
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 12:13:18 CST
Lifted from the British Car list. I hadn't seen it before:
Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas
Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.
When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires.
It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tyres leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electrics leak smoke.
Author Unknown
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<the following is a discussion about the above theories and observations>
>When wires smoke, how come the smoke is not the same color as the wire?
This is not completely true. When the smoke is in the wire, it is under pressure (called voltage). The pressure difference causes the color to change from the normal color we are used to. It's not unlike the blood in our veins and arteries changing color due to the oxygen content. When the smoke escapes the wire and is exposed to air, the pressure is released, and the color reverts back to what we commonly recognize as smoke. The wire then changes to the color of the smoke that escaped.
>I would only question the last sentence of that description. It has
>been my experience that the wire turns a color directly opposite of
the
>smoke.
Not always true, I think it must depend on the composition of the smoke in question.
>I should have made it a little clearer; the color the wire becomes
is
>directly proportional to the escape velocity of the smoke. Higher
>velocities generate higher heat. This heat tends to burn the wire
and
>affect the coloring. The statement was meant to be a generalization,
>indicating the fact that the color of the wire does in fact change.
>Sorry for the miscomunication.
I was speaking of electrcal smoke which is generally white. The spent smoke casing generally assumes a color somewhat near black after the smoke leaves.
>I can't stand it anymore! If, as you say, light bulbs suck up darkness
>and convert it to smoke which is transmitted (via wire) to a power
>source for recycling...why do car batteries go dead when lights are
>left on? Do car batteries (and flashlight batteries for that matter)
>have a limited amount of storage capability? Is it like a hard drive
>that gets so full that you have to double-space and then lose all
>data?
Now you're getting it.......
I thought you guys were smarter than this. Of course the battery stores the smoke. In fact it can store so much smoke that if you open the top and light a match, the resulting explosion can do serious damage. I'm sure you are aware that usually where there's smoke there's fire. If you connect the battery to a charger, the smoke is then returned to the wire (remember, a light bulb won't work unless it is connected to a wire system) for the utility companies to use. Your hard drive analogy is a very good example.
Our hardware guys might be onto something in their quest for superior wiring. I have noticed the unique method of series/parallel wiring the power strips on our systems seems to prevent the smoke from getting out of the wires. A "Smoke Loop" of sorts. In the case of the "smoked" workstation recently, you should notice that this was a conventional single power strip installation.
>Since color is perceived by the cone shaped receptors in our eyes,
and
>cones require more light that their rod shaped counterparts, is the
sky
>blue at night?
At night the process including contraction of the pupil is visual purple by which the eye adapts to conditions of increased illumination when facing 300 candle power redeflecting devices.
Since there is a spectrum of light that we as humans cannot see, I support the theory that everything is going up in smoke, we just can't see it. This may explain why the neighbor's dog barks for no apparent reason.
>I think your basic understanding of smoke systems is remarkable.
>However I find a flaw with your theory. The battery is a reusable
>storage device for smoke. Therefore, one would assume that some sort
of
>one way valve (we can call it a diode) should be needed to prevent
>pressure flooding back into the system while at rest. Unlike the A/C
>system, the smoke system is collecting darkness at the headlights
and
>converting it to smoke. This causes the system to fill up. The battery
>can contain much higher pressures and volumes than the wires. If this
>pressure exceeds the capacity of the wire, it will cause a rupture
as
>you described. The rupture can be controlled by a sacrificial device
>known as a fuse. But this still doesn't eliminate the problem. Perhaps
a
>two way valve (zener diode) is used to allow a small amount of pressure
>to return to the system, and partially equalize. I find this theory
>unlikely though, due to the increase in the force required to start
the
>pump (which is now under pressure) working again...
The smoke continues circulating through the system, due to the pressure differential in the battery (smoke pressure/vacuum reservoir). When the reservoir becomes depleted, the pressure simply equalizes everywhere in the system (similar to an A/C system when it's turned off) and stuff just won't work. Notice the relations: Work (W) = Force (F) x Distance (D); Force (F) = total difference in pressure (Dp) x Area (A). Therefore, the work done in a pressure system is: Dp x A x D. If the pressure differential (Dp) is reduced to zero then W = 0 x A x D = 0.
The smoke only escapes the wires when a path is created between the pressure differential areas (@ either the reservoir or the pump) that has too little restriction. When this happens, the smoke travels through the wires so fast that the friction between the smoke and the outer walls of the wiring heats the wires until they rupture. The smoke continues to escape until its pressure is equalized with the atmosphere, or until the conduit that provides the path between pressure areas is severed. When this happens, the sudden drop in pressure allows the wires to "collapse" slightly and, being soo hot, as the edges of the ruptures and severed ends touch, the material becomes fused, sealing the system and retaining the remaining smoke.
Don't forget, when the system is at rest, all the valves, (switches and relays) are closed, keeping the pressure areas separated. When restarting the pump, as long as everything is OK, the smoke pressure is equal on both sides of the pump and there is no net force on the pump when it begins operating again. Also, within the pump there are pressure/volume-actuated one-way valves with restrictors built in, arranged in such a way that they keep excess smoke volume recirculating through an integral smoke loop, which maintains the pressure within manageable limits.
The excess smoke, created by the light/smoke converters (headlights and other darkness absorbing devices), is changed back to darkness and dissipated in small unit concentrations so its dark effect is not locally observed. The smoke pump impeller (stator), converts smoke into magnetic flux which does work on the engine. Some of the excess work energy is dissipated through the cooling system and exhaust in the form of heat, while the remaining work energy is converted back to smoke and distributed evenly in small concentrations as you drive. This maintains the total quantity of smoke in the system at an average that does not change over time.
The latest issue of Moss Motors parts catalog shows that they now sell a *smoke injector* to refurish failed electrical components. It's only $19.95 and comes with both sae and metric adapters (whitworth is a $9.95 option). The replacement smoke comes in 12oz containers, individually or in packs. and cases of 24. Also, you can get either full or pony kegs of it. The cost is averages around $2.00 per quasidecifurlong which works out to about $5.75 per metric fathom.
18.10 Testing Alternator Output.
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:17:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: Peter Aslan
On Sun, 17 Dec 1995, Jeff E. Dill wrote:
> On a 67 Triumph daytona, what should be the AC output from the
> alternator? My battery keeps going down and I have to charge it back
up
> with an external charger. My AC out at the rectifier is 24 volts.
The
> rectifier is good and the zener is good also. I put a new battery
in it
> and cycled it 2 or 3 times to make sure it was a good battery. It
will
> barely run without the battery hooked up, and if the lights are on
it
> won't run at all without the battery. The headlight is a 35 watt
and
> draws about 1.8 amps. The DC voltage after the rectifier is about
17
> volts. It looks like it should charge just fine. How many amps should
> the alternator produce to charge the battery and run the lights and
>ignition? I'm stumped on this one...
No doubt, someone else will reply with a more detailed diagnosis, but it sounds like your testing the voltage of the alternator and all the other components, with no load. to really measure the output of the Alternator, you should run it into a low ohm, high wattage resistor, or a couple of light bulbs in parallel. You then need to measure the current passing through the leads from the alternator, rather than the voltage across them.
think of it like testing the power of an engine by lifting the wheels off the ground and revving it up, against running the bike up the nearest steep hill.
The problem is, you probably don't have a meter which is capable of measuring such high Amps, (BTW Current, or amps are measured by inserting the meter 'in circuit' or series with the load, if you place the meter across the load, as you would to measue volts, you will damage the meter, or blow the meters fuse). You need a meter which is capable of running to about 30 Amps to do the job properly. There are ways of calculating the current, from the voltage drop across a specific resistance load, but your best bet is to feed the alternator into a couple of 12 volt bulbs, of 30 or so watts and see how brightly they shine. Old headlamp bulbs with just one filliment left are good for this. If you have a friend with the same alternator, you could compare the two.
If the output of the alternator is ok, then wire in the rectifier and the zener, and check the output again, after these components, with the bulbs.
I would assume that by this point you will have discovered the source of the problem, ether a bad alternator winding, or rotor which has run out of magnatism, or even a dodgy connector. Please let us know how you get on.
Regards and good luck,
Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton). Louden Quill Award.
All spelling mistakes are the result of data transmission errors.
18.11 The Warning Light Assimilator.
From: Rich Alves
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 00:27:39 -0500
This is my first attempt at trying to get a word processor file onto a mailing list. Bear with me if it doesn't work our just right.
I've gotten quite a few comments about my listing on an assimilator update for a Norton 850. The following is an article I wrote for the Norton Notice, the newsletter of the Norethern California Norton Owners Club, Volumn 195, July & August 1994. Hope it helps. The lead character, Ken Armann, owns British Motorcycle Restoration and Repair in Campbell, CA (408-371-6786) and is indeed a character!
UPDATING THE IGNITION WARNING LIGHT ASSIMILATOR CURCUIT ON EARLY MARK III'S or How Ken Armann Suckered Me In
My cousin, Alan Mueller, had been after me to "get a Norton" for some time. He enlisted my wife, Connie, in his efforts, and lo and behold guess what I got for Christmas? Filled with excitement I arrived at Ken Armann's to pick it up. The test ride was uneventful (well maybe not, but that is another story). The bike checked out perfectly except for a little red light that didn't come on.
I asked Ken about it. "Oh, that's just the idiot light that shows if your alternator is working or not." "Is it any problem to fix?", I asked. " Naw..except..." Ken then dazzled me with five minutes of technospeak and concluded with, "..do you know anything about electricity or acupuncture?" Having recently conquered a three way light switch I said, " Well...I built a Heathkit once 35 years ago." "Great", said Ken as he handed me a paper bag filled with transistors, resistors, a breadboard, a circuit diagram, miscellaneous pieces of "stuff" and two old burned out assimilators (type 3AW, Lucas part #38717),"just follow the diagram and you'll have these puppies rebuilt and working in no time..one for you and one for me."
Did I ever get into this project. I cannot stand to quit when I know a logical conclusion is just around the corner. Some five weeks, two electronics books, and thirty seven gray hairs later,I was standing in my local Radio Shack deciding which Electronics Projects Kit I should buy so I could increase my knowledge of transistors and possibly get this circuit to work. I already had about $75 invested in books and burned up "stuff", and now I was thinking about another $60 and who knows how much more time. Ken had mentioned that Norton had a sold state upgrade that was used on later Mark III's that "cost a ton of money". I wondered how much. THIRTEEN BUCKS!!
At this point I can save you a ton of time and money. Run, do not walk, give Ken the thirteen bucks for the sold state replacement (Lucas part #06-6393) and proceed as follows:
1. First confirm the idiot light bulb and circuit are OK.
Disconnect the White/Brown lead from the "WL" terminal of the old assimilator and temporarily connect it to ground by touching it to an unpainted surface on the frame or engine. Turn on the ignition. The red idiot light should go on. If it does not, the bulb and its related circuits need to be repaired or replaced.
2. Remove the gas tank:
disconnect the gas lines at the shut offs, remove two nuts fore, two nuts aft, and lift off.
3. Disconnect the wires to the old assimilator.
Remove and throw away the old assimilator and its attendant mounting spring.
4. Use cable ties to mount the new solid state assimilator:
With the spade terminals facing to the right beneath the one inch diameter frame member below the gas tank, just forward of the top motor mount. It will be tucked up out of sight when the tank is replaced.
5. Locate three large 5wire electrical harness connectors.
These should be in the vacinity of the newly mounted assimilator. One connector only has 4 wires: Purple/black, White/pink, Blue and White. Splice a wire into the White wire. (A plastic splice/tap connector is available at hardware aand electronic stores, is eas to use, and works fine). Label this wire "W" and connect it to the "IGN" spade terminal of the new assimilator.
6. Splice a wire into the White/green wire.
This runs between the alternator and the rectifier (a "piggyback" female crimp connector is more elegant, but the plastic splice/tap connector will work). Remove the left side cover and splice/connect near the rectifier, a round device with several metal plates located aft of the battery. Label this wire "WG" and connect it to one of the "AL" spade terminals on the new assimilator.
7. Connect the three wires that went to the old assimilator.
These should be connected to the following spade terminals on the new assimilator: The Red wire goes to the "E" terminal, the Green/yellow wire goes to one of the "AL" terminals, and the White/brown wire goes to the "WL" terminal.
8. Turn the ignition switch on. The red light should be on.
9. Replace the gas tank and reattach the fuel lines.
10. Start the motor.
The red light should go out when the RPM gets to 1500-2500. If it doesn't, go to Radio Shack and buy an Electronics Projects kit. I'll send you my two electronics books. Phone Ken, he loves to play with this "stuff"
11. Stop wasting the day in the garage and go for a ride.
Who needs another idiot light anyway!
Rich Alves
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 23:43:52 -0500 (EST)
From: MAGICSOUND@PAN.COM
I took a look at the article in the INOA Tech digest. The schematic and wiring/layout chart both appear to be correct. There are several discrepancies though. First, the part number given for U1 on the schematic (2N256) is for a large PNP Germanium transistor, rated at 90 watts. This is an obsolete part and is too big to physically fit in the can. The substitute part number in the wiring chart, MJE34 is also rated at 90 watts, and is certainly overkill for controlling a 6 watt indicator bulb. A general-purpose PNP silicon power transistor rated at 25 watts would be adequate and lots cheaper.
Second, the pin identifications are incorrect on the pictures of U1 and U2. Assuming you use the MJE34, U1 should be labeled e c b, with the metal heat-sink facing away from you. U2 should be labeled e b c, with the flat side of the part facing you. If wired according to the original pictures, one or both transistors will probably fail.
Bear in mind that the above advice is based on analysis of the design; I haven't actually built one of these. Please let me know if I'm wrong...
Alan
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 11:19:49 CDT
This applies to 500 Daytona wiring, but is probably Lucas in general.
The DC output on the rectifyer is shown as a 2 wire connection.
Wire A goes directly to the battery (-) with an inline fuze.
Wire B goes directly to the keyswitch and splits at the key to connect to the Zener diode.
The question is, why not go to the Zener first, then to the key? That way the power off the rectifyer is controlled when it gets to the keyswitch instead of the other way round?
This wire is cooked on every harness I've found and the keyswitches too. I know the Zener is ok on mine, the others who knows.
Whatdaya think?
--
Terry Drehmel LWotGM DOD1205
1972 Triumph Tiger - Hobbes
1971 Triumph Daytona - IP
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 10:16:44 PDT
Terry Drehmel writes:
> This applies to 500 Daytona wiring, but is probably Lucas in general.
> The DC output on the rectifyer is shown as a 2 wire connection.
> Wire A goes directly to the battery (-) with an inline fuze.
> Wire B goes directly to the keyswitch and splits at the key to connect
> to the Zener diode.
>
> The question is, why not go to the Zener first, then to the key?
That way the
> power off the rectifyer is controlled when it gets to the keyswitch
instead
> of the other way round?
My guess is that the zener has some leakage which would drain the battery over time. With the keyswitch inline before the zener the leakage isn't a problem. You could try changing the wiring, put an ammeter inline between the battery and the zener and see if you get current flow with the keyswitch off. If not, maybe your idea is OK.
Of course, my EE knowledge is rather dusty these days so I may be way off...
Ralph
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:52:45 CST
> My guess is that the zener has some leakage which would drain the
battery
> over time. With the keyswitch inline before the zener the leakage
isn't
> a problem. You could try changing the wiring, put an ammeter inline
> between the battery and the zener and see if you get current flow
with
> the keyswitch off. If not, maybe your idea is OK.
> Ralph
Good guess, the reverse leakage current of a zener isn't very large(in the microamp range - millionths of an amp) but it does exist and would eventually wear down your battery if left idle too long.
The other possibility could be that if the zener short circuits there is no quick and easy way to break the circuit and you will get a lot of smoke coming out. Of course, we all know that Lucas parts run on smoke and when the smoke comes out they stop working. :-)
By the way, where did I put my smoke injector? :-)
Rob
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 02:22:21 EDT
>My guess is that the zener has some leakage which would drain
>the battery over time. With the keyswitch inline before the zener
>the leakage isn't a problem.
>The other possibility could be that if the zener short circuits
>there is no quick and easy way to break the circuit and you will
>get a lot of smoke coming out.
Nortons seem to have done it the opposite way that the 500 Daytona did [and perhaps all Triumphs]. The, issue, for those who, like me, couldn't follow this without a wiring diagram, is whether the rectifier output connection to the battery and zener diode should come before the ignition switch in the circuit -- so the zener diode is always "hot" -- or whether the ignition switch should come in-between the rectifier and the zener diode, so the diode is "hot" only when the key is on.
According to the wiring diagrams in the Clymer Norton book, the Commando has always been wired so the zener diode, rectifier, and capacitor [if one is used] are always "hot." Therefore, the alternator output is controlled by the zener before it gets to the ignition switch, exactly as Terry wishes the Daytona would do. Also, my older manuals suggest that Atlases and earlier Nortons back to 1964 were the same way.
I can only assume that Norton trusted zener diodes more than Triumph did. If a zener DID go to a dead short, it wouldn't matter where the ignition switch was, because the fuse would blow. Slow leakage on my bikes, if anywhere, has always been through the rectifier, and this is apparently always "hot" in either of these setups.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Interstate Commando
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 10:05:29 +0200
>> My guess is that the zener has some leakage which would drain the
battery
>> over time. With the keyswitch inline before the zener the leakage
isn't
>> a problem. You could try changing the wiring, put an ammeter inline
>> between the battery and the zener and see if you get current flow
with
>> the keyswitch off. If not, maybe your idea is OK.
>
>Good guess, the reverse leakage current of a zener isn't very large
>(in the microamp range - millionths of an amp) but it does exist and
>would eventually wear down your battery if left idle too long.
>
>The other possibility could be that if the zener short circuits
>there is no quick and easy way to break the circuit and you will get
>a lot of smoke coming out. Of course, we all know that Lucas parts
>run on smoke and when the smoke comes out they stop working. :-)
>
>By the way, where did I put my smoke injector? :-)
Yeah! But the *real* problem with Lucas electrics is that they make
so lousy boxes to keep the smoke *inside*. When the smoke comes out and
things stop working it is because the Prince never figured how to make
decent boxes to contain the smoke........
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 08:30:47 CDT
Rob Brotherston writes:
>It has been my experience that in Lucas electronics the entire wiring
>system of the motorcycle is used to _protect_ the fuse. :-)
How true, I think parts of the wire harness have proved better fusable links than the fuseholder itself. On the other hand let me say this about that ... I'll take Lucas over anybody elses just cause it comes on a BritBike. I think the lectrics probably resemble the owner.
From: Pete Serrino
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:59:23 -0500 (EST)
For years along with everyone else I have smiled at the numerous jokes about Lucas electrics. Knock wood, in 23 years of Norton ownership the only failure I've experienced besides burned out bulbs was a separated alternator rotor. I am still using the original coils, rectifier, zener, and storage capacitor.
Well last night I was riding around town on my '76 Guzzi when it started to breakup on me. It was getting worse by the mile so I decided to head over to my friend Jim Noll's house. By the time I got there it was only running on one cylinder. After determining one side was without spark I finally discovered a coil had opened up. Jim rummaged around in his boxes of spare parts and came up with a 12 volt Lucas coil. Ty-rapping it on and moving the leads over, I was back on the road. Got home without missing a beat.
Anyone got any Marelli jokes out there?
Pete
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:07:40 CST
> From: Mike Taglieri
[edit, edit]
> I can only assume that Norton trusted zener diodes more than Triumph
> did. If a zener DID go to a dead short, it wouldn't matter where
the
> ignition switch was, because the fuse would blow.
[edit,edit]
It has been my experience that in Lucas electronics the entire wiring system of the motorcycle is used to _protect_ the fuse. :-)
Never trust a fuse if you don't have to. I have seen fuses carry many times thier rated amperage and not open circuit.
Rob
From: Jamie Hamilton
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 08:38:01 +0800
>It has been my experience that in Lucas electronics the entire wiring
>system of the motorcycle is used to _protect_ the fuse. :-)
>
>Never trust a fuse if you don't have to. I have seen fuses carry
>many times thier rated amperage and not open circuit.
Pity I didnt read this 6 months ago when I got a short and barbequed a loom on the freeway - fuse still going strong. Lucas fuses - built to last.
Jamie
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 02:13:33 EDT
>It has been my experience that in Lucas electronics the entire
>wiring system of the motorcycle is used to _protect_ the fuse. :-)
The only time I've blown a fuse on Raul was in a rainstorm approaching a typhoon, when water trickled into the snap connector between the wiring loom and the ignition switch that I installed when I got rid of the spade connectors on the back of the ignition switch and soldered the wires instead. Since that snap connector was not Lucas, but taken from a Honda [wash my mouth out with soap!], I can hardly blame the Prince for that one.
One reason why there are so many fried wiring looms is that most people are using too high a fuse:
****DO NOT USE A 35 AMP FUSE ON AN ENGLISH BIKE****
The right fuse is about 20 amps, which was apparently designated - amazingly -- as fuse No. 35-A. [most manuals don't have this, but at one point, I held such a fuse in my hand and realized the truth: "35-A" is in big letters, and the amperage is much less visible]. I now use a 20 for all riding, and would recommend it.
From: Peter Snidal
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 13:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
The Daemon pooped this back to me, so here it is for all to peruse. maybe CHLit will get it as well:
On Thu, 7 Jul 1994 CHLit@aol.com wrote:
> My 71 TR6R seems to lose the ignition after it warms up pretty
> good. Zenier diode? I've been running with a dead battery, and
> using the lights. I noticed that there wasn't enough juice to
> toot the horn right before the misfiring started. After idling
> a bit, it cleared up for about a half mile. then did it again
> (twice). Tell me it's something easy......
> Little
>
Your battery is probly getting enough time in between runs to accumulate
enough juice to help your system for a little while, then nothing. Pop
for a battery; JC whitney wants less than 25 bux. Then check to see what
voltage your system maintains at 1800 rpm or so with lights on, and with
lights off, compared to not running. (Charging voltage.) If it's less than
13+ volts, disconnect your Zener. (Its purpose is to keep the system voltage
down below 14 volts. Good joke.) If you don't get 13+ volts even with zener
disconnected and lights off, check the ac output of your alternator. It
should be up there in the 18-20 VAC range. If it is, but your output from
your rectifier is failing to bring they system voltage (against a good
battery) to 13+, then go to Radio Shack (that's right) and get a 10 or
20 Amp Bridge Rectifier for less than 5 bucks. Heat sink it (mount it so
it can stay cool by conduction) to your fender or a piece of aluminum plate
or something similar, connect the two AC connections to your alternator,
the + to the bat +, the - to the bat -, and see how she goes from ther.
Let me know how it all turns out.
(This is also a good time to ground your - and use the + for a hot wire, but don't do it. You'll just confuse the shit out of some poor bugger down the road - maybe even yourself. Positive ground is actually a good idea - supposed to keep down battery terminal corrosion, and I've never seen a brit bike with green bugs growing on the battery terminal.)
Best o' luck
From: CHLit@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 14:52:29 EDT
I just have been told that a battery with a short will act the way mine
does. There are not many souls who have less ability to diagnose an electrical
problem than me. Anyway, I've got a new rectifier, battery, and VOM meter
out of the deal, and I've used the time to repair about a million questionable
connections in my harness,and have every hope that my troubles are nearing
the end, at least on this one.....
Little
From: Terry Drehmel
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 94 14:06:22 CDT
Chi-lite writes,
> and I've used the time to repair about a million
>questionable connections in my harness,and have every hope
> that my troubles are nearing the end, at least on this one.....
BWWHHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAhAAAhaa!!ha!!!! That's what YOU think!!!!
At least that's what Lord Lucas said the last time I spoke to him.
Good luck anaway!
From: CHLit
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 94 23:05:53 EDT
Well as I sit here, as smug as a Christian with four aces, I can reflect on my previous problem and actually laugh. I even confessed to my neighbor what a bonehead play I made. I really shouldn't have fired my man, but he'd only been with the family for three... no four generations. To think that he would have hooked up my battery backwards intentionally, I felt was grounds enough.....
Actually, the guy at the battery shop said he'd seen it about three times before(in 25 years). It is posible to charge a battery backwards, resulting in several blown fuses, new rectifier, and a new battery.
I'm not sure my notes have been posted lately, so if this is redundant,ignore .
re: parallel vee twin- Brian Tyree in Alb NM has done a featherbed 750 to I think he said 90 degrees. he's very satisfied with the conversion, but thinks it would be better to dynamically balance (versus static) the crank. Response is quicker and it's smoother up to about 4000 rpm. I'll post his phone numbers to individuals who are interested.
re: stainless spokes- Ken's Kustom Wheels
Rt1 Box 1080
Los Lunas, New Mexico 87031
505-865-0140
He priced spokes for about 50/55 per wheel and will lace one for 35 bucks. Nice guy, call him.
Little
From: Steve Bacon
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 09:55:42 -0600 (CST)
Hello all, Last Friday I picked up a new birthday present: a 1976 T140V, so now I venture into the lands of 1) Triumph, and 2) Multiple bike ownership (this last one creates a problem as it's just too easy to borrow parts from the Norton "just to see if it'll work".)
Anyway. What's the "V" stand for? Any special things I should make sure that I do or do not do?
Of course there is a minor problem (isn't there always?) If one connects the zener diode and then puts the negative wire to the terminal *POOF* blown fuse. This happens regardless of key position (on or off). This seems like a cut and dried short somewhere between the rectifier and the zener. But I figured that the Lord of Darkness moves in mysterious ways and so can anyone assure me that I'm right, or correct me if I'm wrong (like maybe it's a bad rectifier). Hopefully Lord Lucas is just trying to work some reverse psychology on me.
Oh, forgot to mention that without the zener attached, it doesn't blow the fuse and the parking light and headlamp work, and things spark (unfortunately a little too much down at the points ==> bad condenser.
- Steve. (bacons@mis.fuhscms.edu)
72 Norton Commando 750
76 Triumph T140V ("Yukon Jack" <-- go ahead, ask me)
From: Ralph Merwin
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 8:26:44 PDT
Steve Bacon writes:
> Of course there is a minor problem (isn't there always?) If one connects
> the zener diode and then puts the negative wire to the terminal *POOF*
> blown fuse. This happens regardless of key position (on or off).
This
> seems like a cut and dried short somewhere between the rectifier
and the
> zener. But I figured that the Lord of Darkness moves in mysterious
ways
> and so can anyone assure me that I'm right, or correct me if I'm
wrong
> (like maybe it's a bad rectifier). Hopefully Lord Lucas is just trying
> to work some reverse psychology on me.
> Oh, forgot to mention that without the zener attached, it doesn't
blow
> the fuse and the parking light and headlamp work, and things spark
(un-
> fortunately a little too much down at the points ==> bad condenser.
Steve,
Congrats on the new bike! If you find the responsibilities of multiple bike ownership to great to bear I could probably find room in my garage for that old Norton of yours... ;-)
As for the zener, it itself is probably shorted, hence disconnected by the former owner. You can test this yourself. Diodes have resistance in one electrical direction but not the other. Get one of those little volt-ohm meters and put it onto something like the 1K OHMS setting. Put one lead on the case of the zener and the other on the connector. You should get either a reading of zero ohms (just like if you touch the VOM leads together) or a resistance of a few hundred ohms. Then reverse the leads. If you get zero ohms again then the zener is shorted. If you get an infinity reading in either direction the zener is open (like a blown fuse), but this doesn't seem likely given your description.
Ralph
From: Steve Bacon
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:49:56 -0600 (CST)
Hello again,
I forgot to mention that my friend has a 70 or 72 Bonnie and so we tried his zener and the same thing happened. Now maybe both of ours are bad but hmmmm....
Now that I think about it, mine connects to the airbox cover but his
is to one of those air-streamed / finned radiators at the front of his
bike. When we tested his, we just held it to the frame and it blew the
fuse. Wouldn't this seem to rule out a short between the rectifier and
the zener? Curiouser and curiouser...
- Steve
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 19:26:50 PDT
From: Steve Bacon
> Last Friday I picked up a new birthday present: a 1976 T140V, ....
>
> Anyway. What's the "V" stand for? Any special things I should make
>sure that I do or do not do?
V == 5 speed transmission....
I just finished fiddling with mine and found that new clutch plates and the correct primary chain tension (~3/8 play) allows me to get into neutral while stopped....looks like ANY clutch drag prevents this rather simple and necessary function....
>Of course there is a minor problem (isn't there always?) If one connects
>the zener diode and then puts the negative wire to the terminal *POOF*
>blown fuse.
>
Check the Zener itself....if wire is shorted, fuse will blow, zener or no. ....and you DO have the battery in right side out? i.e. Positive ground... Rumor on this net has it that Radio Shuck can supply a high power zener to use as a replacement... 13v @25w according to lucas.
enjoy
MS
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 94 01:35:44 EDT
Sorry I mixed up my amps and volts so badly -- yes, as schip@tfs.com points out, it is the voltage at high RPM that blows the bulbs, but I guess the important thing is that they DO blow.
I'm still a bit confused about the health and safety of zener diodes
the way Joe Hill plans to run his bike. Schip@tfs.com writes:
>>Extra available amps have no effect on these things [bulbs, etc.]
>>unless there is a dead short someplace . . .
However, wouldn't a zener diode above its switch-on voltage BE a dead short to ground, or very nearly so? Therefore, if Joe is running the engine with a magneto, and the 51.5 watts that the engine supposedly uses [Norton news #55 for chart] is not being used, wouldn't far more amps go through the zener diode at switch-on than Lucas ever intended, or has schip@tfs.com already calculated this to arrive at his "10 or 20 watts"? I know that according to the Norton News chart, the system is pretty closely balanced with a conventional headlight [which is why I have a shortfall with my quartz-halogen light]. By contrast, I'd expect significant overcapacity when the engine isn't using juice, and a strain on the zener if it does have to get rid of all this heat. Commandos mount the zener on a massive aluminum heat sink, but the BSA and Triumph setups have often given me cause to wonder. [By the way, I forgot to mention that the top of the Radio Shack rectifier is aluminum, which can be sanded flat and bolted into close contact to a suitable frame member. Therefore, it does heatsink fairly well].
Since my total electronics training consists of one trade-school course years ago and what I pick up from the bike magazines, could schip@tfs.com or one of you other knowledgeable folks give me some help on another semi-related charging system question? If I know how many watts my alternator falls short of the demands of my halogen headlight (by my estimates, 15 watts at low beam, 22 watts at high at 3000 rpm), how do I determine how long I can ride at night before the battery dies, or can one?
By day, I use a 20-watt halogen pilot light instead of the headlight to conform to New York's lights-on rule [works very well, by the way], so I would assume the battery is fully charged when the sun sets, and it's a 9 amp/hour battery. Does that mean I can ride on low beam for 7.2 hours, or on high beam for 4.9 hours? Something tells me it can't be this simple. Also, I have a Boyer, which may consume more than the 51.5 watts supposedly consumed by a points system, and which also won't restart if the voltage drops too low, which I guess would occur before the last watt was wrung out of the battery. Are there any formulas for this?
Mike Taglieri [demographics should be pretty obvious from my header]
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Andrew Wolf
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 94 07:45:18 -0600
To the folks wondering how to control the output from an alternator, much talk has centered on the zener diode. However if no power is required for the ignition, you may be able to get away with simply disconnecting 1 leg of the 3 legs of the alternator. This will reduce the out put by 2/3 I believe.
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 10:50:12 CST
Does anyone know the wattage of the famous Lucas zener diode (around 25W?). Or how many amps it carries? Also it's anode the case?
Rob
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 94 9:51:31 PDT
This is only guess work, but I figure it to be 25W because its gonna take up to 10 amps and drop a couple volts across it... (with a 120W alternator putting out 15v at max)
The case is the triangle end of the beast, and no I could never remember anode from cathode....
|\
/
| \ |
|
\|
case | /|center-contact
| / |
|/ /
nice drawing, huh?
MS
From: William.F.Dudley
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 94 15:01:28 EDT
> From: schip@tfs.com (Michael Schippling)
>
> This is only guess work, but I figure it to be 25W because its
> gonna take up to 10 amps and drop a couple volts across it...
> (with a 120W alternator putting out 15v at max)
The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full output, which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts, since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed for.
I would guess the power dissipation to be 120W peak, and 120W-(headlight+taillight+ignition power) long term, limited by the heat-sink capacity and thermal resistance from the zener chip to the zener case to the heat sink.
And then I would go to the store and buy the biggest one I could find
in the stud mount package. Or maybe fake it with a lower power zener and
a high power transistor. (Anode of zener to transistor base; cathode of
zener to transistor collector, this is still the cathode connection; the
new anode connection is the transistor emitter).
>
> The case is the triangle end of the beast, and no I could never
> remember anode from cathode....
>
> |\
/
> | \ |
> |
\|
> case | /|center-contact
> | / |
> |/ /
>
> nice drawing, huh?
Yes, but . . .
Since the commando is positive ground, and the zener is designed to conduct in the reverse direction (from the normal diode direction), this implies that the case is the anode and the top terminal is the cathode (the bar in the schematic), so you have your drawing backwards.
Bill Dudley
AT&T Bell Labs
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 94 10:21:22 +0200
>The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full output,
>which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts,
>since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed
for.
Huh?!?
On my bike the zener is connected from - to gnd *after* the rectifier. Connected across the alternator output, it will not function as a *zener* diode in the sense of being a voltage reference. It would also require 2 diodes, one for each phase. Connected this way I guess you will lose one half period per phase (when the diode is biased in forward direction) and thereby also lose half the power.
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: Robert Smits
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 1994 09:49:00 PST
Espen Olsen writes:
>>The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full output,
>>which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts,
>>since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed
for.
>>
>
>Huh?!?
>
>On my bike the zener is connected from - to gnd *after* the rectifier.
>Connected across the alternator output, it will not function as a
*zener*
>diode in the sense of being a voltage reference. It would also require
2
>diodes, one for each phase. Connected this way I guess you will lose
one
>half period per phase (when the diode is biased in forward direction)
and
>thereby also lose half the power.
>
Since the alternator (after the rectifier) is also connected to - and
ground, it can be said the zener is connected across the alternator output.
The zener is ALWAYS connected after the rectifier, so the zener deals only
with d.c., not a.c.
There are TWO important ratings for zeners - the voltage at which it conducts, and the power rating in watts - which describes how much power the zener can dissipate. The power dissipated in a zener diode is the product of the voltage across it and the current through it. Conversely, the maximum current a particular zener may conduct is equal to the power rating divided by it's voltage rating.
Thus, a 10-V, 50.0 Watt Zener diode, if operated at its maximum dissipation rating, would conduct 5 amperes. A 10-V, 1 Watt zener, on the other hand, could safely conduct no more than .1 ampere. Also, the power rating of most zener diodes is rated at 25 degrees C, about room temperature. If it's operated at a higher ambient temperature, its power capability must be de-rated. A typical 1 Watt zener can safely dissipate only 1/2 watt at 100 deg C.
Zener diodes are basically being used as brute force shunt regulators. They are in parallel with the output of the rectifier from the alternator and the battery, and shunt current through the zener at any time the voltage from the rectifier exceeds the zener rating. The amount of current it can safely shunt through the zener depends mainly on the power rating of the zener (and secondarily on the zener's temperature, which is why we have those big finned heat sinks on them, since the current through the zener is dissipated as heat).
To improve the reliability of the regulator circuit, you can use a zener with a higher power rating, or design a regulator that uses the zener to control a transistor that has a larger power dissipation.
One word of caution - if you think you can just use a Japanese regulator in place of the P.O.D. version, remember that most of our Britbikes were positive ground, and the Japanese ones are all negative ground. Most of the regulators have one side of the regulator connected to ground through the heat sink, and you'd need to insulate the regulator from the chassis ground to make it work.
--
Robert Smits
Niagara Falls is simply a vast unnecessary amount of water going
the wrong way and then falling over unnecessary rocks.
- Oscar Wilde
From: Michael Schippling
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 94 17:11 PDT
Goddamn it....the .75 probability of getting a 1 in 2 choice wrong strikes... I did draw it backwards, and I was just fiddling with a Lucus zener this afternoon and noticed that I drew it backwards....the diode's bar is indeedeedoo the CASE end of the little beast.
I hope I didn't cause anyone to let the smoke out of one of their diodes...
MS
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 94 08:55:26 +0200
some obscure VE wrote:
>>>The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full output,
>>>which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts,
>>>since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed
for.
>>>
>>>
>>
to which I intelligently responded:
>>Huh?!?
>>
>>On my bike the zener is connected from - to gnd *after* the rectifier.
>>Connected across the alternator output, it will not function as a
*zener*
>>diode in the sense of being a voltage reference. It would also require
2
>>diodes, one for each phase. Connected this way I guess you will lose
one
>>half period per phase (when the diode is biased in forward direction)
and
>>thereby also lose half the power.
>>
>>
then again the VE returned:
>Since the alternator (after the rectifier) is also connected to -
and
>ground, it can be said the zener is connected across the alternator
>output. The zener is ALWAYS connected after the rectifier, so the
zener
>deals only with d.c., not a.c.
Huh?! agn....
Schematic:
Bridge rectifier (bad ascii drawing)
o-------o
/ \ zener
AC o< >o-----------------o
| \ / _
o----|--o
^ Batt.
|
|
-------------|---------o
gnd.
Not implemented here is the AC ground connection. But the alternator itself is in NO WAY connected to as you explicitely say "- and ground " after the rectifier. This would give AC on the battery. Sri for ascii graphics ;-) The zener is connected across the *rectifier* output, not the alternator. btw, I had to disconnect the zener on my bike, as it opened @ 13.0 V... totally lucas.
73
mmmmmmmm I love the smell of napalm in the morning!
Espen
LA6MGA/LA1K
DoD#7962
Disclaimer?? What disclaimer?
From: William.F.Dudley
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 94 10:17:23 EDT
> From: espen@itekiris.kjemi.unit.no (Espen Olsen)
> >
> >The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full output,
> >which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts,
> >since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed
for.
> >
> >
>
> Huh?!?
>
> On my bike the zener is connected from - to gnd *after* the rectifier.
>
SORRY, momentary brain fade. I meant across the battery. I was *thinking* and it takes the full output power of the Alternator for battery voltages above 14.5v.
Thanks for the correction.
From: Robert Smits
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 1994 20:27:00 PST
espen@itekiris.kjemi.unit.no (Espen Olsen) writes:
>some obscure VE wrote:
>>>>The zener is across the alternator output, so it sees the full
output,
>>>>which by definition is limited to the zener voltage, say 14.5 volts,
>>>>since that's what we assume the Norton (Lucas?) engineer designed
for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>to which I intelligently responded:
>>>Huh?!?
>>>
>>>On my bike the zener is connected from - to gnd *after* the rectifier.
>>>Connected across the alternator output, it will not function as
a *zener*
>>>diode in the sense of being a voltage reference. It would also require
2
>>>diodes, one for each phase. Connected this way I guess you will
lose one
>>>half period per phase (when the diode is biased in forward direction)
and
>>>thereby also lose half the power.
>>>
>>>
>
>then again the VE returned:
>>Since the alternator (after the rectifier) is also connected to -
and
>>ground, it can be said the zener is connected across the alternator
>>output. The zener is ALWAYS connected after the rectifier, so the
zener
>>deals only with d.c., not a.c.
>
>
>Huh?! agn....
>
>Schematic:
>
> Bridge rectifier (bad ascii drawing)
>
> o-------o
>
/ \ zener
>
AC o< >o-----------------o
>
| \ / _
> o----|--o
^ Batt.
>
|
|
>
-------------|---------o
>
gnd.
>
>Not implemented here is the AC ground connection. But the alternator
itself
>is in NO WAY connected to as you explicitely say "- and ground " after
the
>rectifier. This would give AC on the battery. Sri for ascii graphics
;-) The
>zener is connected across the *rectifier* output, not the alternator.
btw, I
>had to disconnect the zener on my bike, as it opened @ 13.0 V... totally
lucas.
>
>73
Of course it's not connected DIRECTLY from the alternator winding to ground and the negative terminal. It's connected to negative and ground after (or through or via) the current goes through the rectifier. The rectifier is in between the stator winding and the battery connections, and changes AC to DC, so the zener sees D.C. only, not AC. I think of the rectifier as part of the alternator system, since otherwise we'd have an AC generator.
Perhaps I should have said via the rectifier, although I thought saying
that the zener saw only DC, not AC, made that clear.
__
If you stay in Beverly Hills too long you become a Mercedes.
- Robert Redford
From: Ron Parker
Date: 19 Oct 1994 14:43:18 +1100
Hi,
Any one out there now the voltage and current rating for the Triumph zener diode?
Boyer versus Lucas Rita ignitions any comments please?
Ron Parker
From: John Kula
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 15:41:16 PDT
I'm not sure where Gregg buys _his_ zeners, but $35 for a little lump of metal (and that's not even to Military specs) is not what _I_ would call cheap.
John Kula jakula@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca Commando 930 (MacBeth)
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 11:31:27 +0200
>Regarding the recent query on the rating of the infamous Lucas Zener,
>I recall measuring one a number of years ago, at about 13.75 volts
at
>zener currents of a few amps. From its appearance, I'd say it's dissapation
>capacity is about 50 watts.
Agreed on the amperage. The Voltage, however...... 13.75 V Is how it *should* be. The good ole' Lucas ones (at least those that came with my 12V kit) opened at 13.0 V I say opened, because the current/voltage characteristics of a zener is *very* steep, so you won't get much voltage rise with current. OK: Lucas supplies 13.0V zeners, they should be 13.75V or thereabout
OTOH... Please mr. Lucas, zener to protect against too much power? TOO MUCH POWER???? I'm running my bike without one, and I've got the 180W kit installed. I've never had problems with a toasted battery.
>The zener voltage will set the charging rate for the bike's battery,
>and since zeners are rated with a +/- tolerance, you should be careful
>to get a 5% zener. The other problem is that zener voltage is
>proportional to the zener current, so if you start out with one that's
>a bit on the high side of the tolerance, at high engine revs, with
a
>light electrical load, you could overcharge your battery.
On a Lucas system? Gimme a break!
As I said, the zener is *very* steep. This is not a problem. Hell, it's even no problem *without* the zener!
Espen
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 11:42:04 +0200
From: Espen Olsen
>I'm not sure where Gregg buys _his_ zeners, but $35 for a little lump
of metal
>(and that's not even to Military specs) is not what _I_ would call
cheap.
14V, 200W makes some 15A....
I'd say about $5... Available @ your nearest Radio Shack store Be sure to get the right polarity
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:41:21 CST
Since more than one person seems to have trouble finding a replacement for the infamous zener it might help to know that it's JEDEK number is 1N3313RB (14V, 50W). Note the 'RB' denotes polarity.
If you go to any electronic supply store they can probably *order* it for you using this number. Unless you have a large number of Brit Bikes in your area I can't imagine why an electronics shop would stock this part.
Rob
From: Tony Sumner
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 15:21:40 BST
The R denotes the reversed polarity (ie cathode to case - negative earth) and the B denotes +/- 5% tolerance on the zener voltage.
From: Gregg R. Kricorissian
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 94 23:21:59 EDT
Rob Brotherston's helpful comments (unlike Espen Olsen's) added some real value to the discussion on Zener ratings.
With Rob's input that the industry-standard type number is '1N3313RB', some of you may be able to source a zener from some of the big electronics wholesalers. For others who deal with smaller electronics outlets, there is another alternative: to specify a third-party replacement unit, such as those marketed by companies such as ECG/Phililps, and NTE. Their numbers are ECG-5256AK, and NTE-5256AK respectively.
As Rob mentioned in his note, the above are 14V, 5% Zeners, and though they'e a higher voltage rating than I recall to be right, they'll likely be OK. His comments caused me to dig a bit further, and I found the OEM spec is 13.5 Volts to 15 (!), at a zener current of 2 amps. Can't agree with the 15, but a zener rating between 13.75 to 14 seems about right.
The other snag to watch for is that unlike the genuine Lucas items,
the commercially-available zeners do not have the large flat 'Lucar' (as
Lucas called it) connector on the Anode (negative) connection. My data
book shows they come in an industry-standard 'DO5' case configuration,
which means they will have the correct 1/4 x 28 tpi mounting stud, but
a solder terminal for the anode (.375' eyelet, with .140" hole). Hope this
is of use.
..Gregg
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 16:35:45 +0200
>Rob Brotherston's helpful comments (unlike Espen Olsen's) added some
real
>value to the discussion on Zener ratings.
As for myself, I find my own posting *most* informative ;-P
<sniff>
Hmmm. Where *did* I put that old barrel of napalm.....
Espen
From: Mike Taglieri
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 04:52:40 -0400
>The other snag to watch for is that unlike the genuine Lucas items,
>the commercially-available zeners do not have the large flat 'Lucar'
>(as Lucas called it) connector on the Anode (negative) connection.
>My data book shows they come in an industry-standard 'DO5' case
>configuration, which means they will have the correct 1/4 x 28 tpi
>mounting stud, but a solder terminal for the anode (.375' eyelet,
>with .140" hole).
Hope this is of use.
Although I have not (yet) had trouble with my OEM zener diode, I've enjoyed following the zener thread (although I'm not sure whether it really helps this group for us to be rating the value of one anothers' posts). At any rate, I would recommend ignoring the "Lucar" connector even on genuine Lucas diodes and soldering the wire on; since the zener is overtaxed under many conditions anyway, it makes no sense to us a high-resistance snap connector.
Zeners, alternators, Boyers, and similar components are not items that are routinely removed for maintenance and all of them can benefit from good, corrosion-free connections. On the rare occasions that I've had to remove my zener, I've clipped the wire a few inches above it, then soldered and taped that joint when I replaced it, thereby avoiding having to heat the zener for soldering more than once.
Another mod I did to my own zener (particularly because Norton puts it down on the footrest where the sh%@ can slop all over it), was to coat the wire connection, and other exposed metal, with epoxy after I soldered the wire on, thereby preventing unwanted leakage around the zener when it's slopped with mud, etc. Obviously, it is not necessary to do this to the diode's metal case, which is already at ground potential.
Years ago, when I did camera repair for a living, I had a Radio Shack air compressor about the size of a large can of soup, and intended for inflating tires, etc. It ran off a car battery, so I used it in my shop (with an old battery, no longer strong enough to crank an engine) for blowing dust off parts, etc. Very good results, saving many cans of DustOff (and some part of the ozone layer). It was damaged in a flood, or I'd probably still be using it - about $20.
Mike Taglieri
Raul -- '72 Commando Interstate
From: Rob Brotherston
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:50:30 CST
> When replacing zeners, is there a consensus on whether 13V or 14V
> zeners are a better way to go? My '73 T140 is having trouble keeping
> it's (relatively new) battery charged so I'm thinking the existing
> part is has too low of a clamping voltage, and am leaning toward
the
> 14V part as a replacement. Don't know what the spec on the original
> lucas part was.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
The spec on the original was 13.5-15 Volts at 2 Amps. A suitable replacement would be:
1N3313RB - Jedek \
ECG-5256AK - ECG Phillips |-- All 14V, 5% tolerance
NTE-5256AK - NTE /
The only difference between the numbers listed and the original is the anode connection is a 0.375" solder connection with a 0.140" hole instead of the original Lucar connector (and they are half the price). The stud for the heat sink is still a 1/4 X 28 tpi stud.
Hope this helps.
Note: Much of this info was in a post by Gregg Kricorissian a while back. Thanks Gregg.
Rob B.
Ride Free Citizen! (Moto, Biker Mouse From Mars)
From: Espen Olsen
Date: Mon, 15 May 95 14:17:33 +0200
>Espen's earlier post prompts me to raise this point:
>the Zener diode's 'job' is really to act as an automatic valve
>(pardon the metaphor) that dumps excess electricity as required.
>To be technically correct, it is a voltage-sensitive semiconductor
>that only begins to conduct once the applied voltage reaches a
>certain ('zener') threshold. At that point, the Zener begins to
>conduct more and more current, with very small incremental increases
>in its applied voltage. Since the Zener is effectively in parallel
>with the alternator via the rectifier, the applied voltage is the
>alternator's rectifed output: the Zener 'senses' and dumps any
>excess electricity from the alternator by converting it to heat.
Yes. This is brilliantly described. This is why it is so important to have a good heat sink in connection with the zener. The zener keeps a constant voltage in the system by shorting "excessive voltage", converting the current into heat.
>A higher voltage Zener can only help by letting the system output
>rise further before the Zener starts dumping electricity. A Zener
can't
>compensate for a weak alternator, or excessive loading on the system.
>So on the flipside, as Bob Cram suggests, in a properly operating
system,
>removal of the Zener, and running with lights off can be disasterous
>because there's nothing there to shed the excess generated power.
Hm. If you mean that the voltage will rise and rise and rise, this is not right. I should have included in my previous post a disclaimer about not using the zenerless approach with a electronic ignition.
My point is: the 13V zener did not allow my battery to charge properly, even with the lights off. I measured the voltage on the battery poles (charging voltage) and it barely reached 13.3-13.5V *this is not enough for adequate charging*. A lead-acid battery should be charged at a voltage in the region 13.8-14.4V. (believe me on this fact. 14.4V in cold climates).
Another characteristic of this battery is that it is supposed to be charged at constant voltage unlike NiCads needing constant current. OK. In my new high power (well.. the Lucas equivalent) 85W 12V-type alternator electrical system, the supplied 13V high-current zeners would not allow the voltage to reach the point for the battery to charge well. One approach was to go for a 14V zener. I actually tried a 18V zener lying around in my box, but the alternator was not capable of (Lucas,"high output" =3D:-P) giving a max voltage of more than 15-15.2V at the battery. So instead I cut out the zener altogether, realizing it didn't have any significant value, and the charging voltage sometimes reach a measured 15V which is a bit high, but have not given me any problems yet, but the battery well charged. ...Well the taillight bulb is of somewhat short longevity but I don't care. If the 15V max voltage from the alternator is implying that my charging system is not functioning right, I stand corrected.
If I were to fit a Boyer or something similar I would check with the manufacturer if the system will tolerate this high a supply voltage. My guess is Yes, as most solid-state "12V" transistor devices for automotive use is designed to tolerate higher voltages becuse of bad/malfunctioning charging regulators being found in all kinds of veichles.
As long as you know what you're doing, experimenting with electrics
isn't dangerous. People seem to look at the electrics as some wizardry,
better to be left alone. To me the book Zen and... preaches the right philosophy.
Go ahead and fiddle with things, but you've better know what you're doing!
That is why I as a physicist am a bit more reluctant to go into the mechanical
parts of the engine.
Espen