Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:33:40 -0800 (PST)
I couldn't resist the invitation for Lucas quotes.
I remember this one from my days working on Lotus and Brit MC's. "The
only way Lucas is able to achieve their legendary reliability is for the
parts to be assembled in the dark depths of a Shetland coal mine and packed
in brine for shipment to the US."
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 13:02:29 PST
My favorite was a T shirt that read: "Doctor,
what do you mean it's a Lucas pacemaker..."
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 13:42:47 PST
I know, YOU"VE heard it before but maybe someone
else hasn't.
Is it true that the Brits drink warm beer because
they have Lucas refrigerators? Joe Lucas, The "Prince of Darkness"
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94:17:55
Q- "What's the Lucas corporate slogan?"
A- "A good day's work and home before dark."
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 9:44:27 PST
Ryan scoffs:
what is Lucas doing now asides from the Lucas-Rita
system (Boyer counterpart)? It was been noted that British Motorcycles
is misleading as they should be called English Motorcycles mainly because
they were built in England and had nothing to do with the good citizens
of Scotland, Wales, Ireland and such. "You got one of them Limey bikes,
eh?" ;-)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 14:07:44 EST
>From: Graeme Harrison
They did say, from the start, that they wanted
to make the best motorcycle they could, using the best parts from all over
the world. Not that I've ever ridden one, but the reviews and the numbers
seem to say that they are acomplishing just that.
Bloody shame though, I would hate to see the new
and improved UK motorcycle industry give up in the same manner that many
industries in the USA did, by just taking a whole lot of foreign made parts
and slappin' 'em together here and saying its a product of the USA. But
I'm rambling.
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 18:54:12 +0000 (GMT)
Latte Jed sez:
Aha! I've been wondering about this for a while
and it seems that there's some expertise here I can tap.
My JPN has what was considered the "high output"
alternator in '74 because of the extra draw of the dual headlights. The
rest of the Commando line picked up this alternator in '75 because of the
extra draw of the electric start.
Unfortunately, the alternator can't keep up with
the headlights. I have been wondering if it is a case of the rotor losing
its magnetism but I don't know how to test it, and then if it fails the
test I don't know of a shop to remagnetise it.
So, any idea how to accurately test the alternator
output, and specifically how to determine whether or not it's a rotor problem?
And how about the name of one or more shops that will remagnetise the rotor
if that turns out to be the problem?
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 08:54:14 -0500 (EST)
>So, any idea how to accurately test the alternator
output, and specifically how to
No clue how to test it, if you knew how much current
it should be able to supply you could clamp an ammeter on it.
I had a problem with a T100, I pulled the rotor
out and compared how heavy a screwdriver it could lift with a spare I had,
the spare was stronger so I put it in and it fixed the problem. I assume
you've checked for higher wattage headlamps and a feeble battery.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 08:03:40 CST
Don't know if Matchless is precisely the same
as Triumph...
I went through major problems with low charge
on Hobbes for the first 3 years or so. It got to the point where I had
to run two batteries, not at the same time obviously, but one was on the
charger while one was in the bike and I used the horn as voltmeter -loud
bark=full up, bike dies=time to swap batteries. (seriously thought I had
hit the kill switch before I figured out what was up.)
I managed to figure it all out but not without
first paying homage to Lord Lucas. The whole twisted tail would require
rechecking my notes and I'm sure there's enough expertise on the net to
cover everything, but this is what I can remember right off the top:
1. Rotors can lose magnetism - kinda rare - they
also develope cracks and explode totalling out a lot of merchandise. If
the rotor is really loose on the bushing it's time to look around for something
different.
2. The stator coils can be checked by applying
12v to the TWO wires - Note: I don't have the 3-wire version. If you apply
12v you should find all of the metal pads inside the stator are magnetic.
If not, or really really weak -the windings are bad.
3. The output of the alternator should be >9 amps
dc when you have a BIG 1ohm resistor in series. I have done this set-up,
it proved my rotor to be junk, I don't have the data in front of me so
I can't give any more details, if it can wait till Monday I'll get the
full report then.
4. I was told that if you take the two wires off
the alternator, run the bike up to 3 grand and touch the two wires together,
you should see a bright blue spark, if not the alternator isn't working
right. I will tell you about this some other day when everyone needs a
good laugh.
5. The wires from the alternator to the first
set of connectors can get broken inside the covering that comes out of
the primary cover. It's a heavy black plastic sheath that protects the
wires. It also fills with oil and grit sometimes.
Anyway, I had multiple problems which resulted
in bad charge. The rotor was shot. The wires comming out of the primary
were cracked and the oil had gotten to the few strands that held the wire
together. The connectors were corroded. The rectifier was rusted at the
point where it bolts to the electrics pan.
To fix, I got a different rotor, soldered some
wires up and cleaned some rust off. Sounds simple but took a lonng time
to figure out. The whole check out is in the factory manual, but it also
took a Clymer (ptooie!) manual to check out the numbers on the rotor and
stator to see that they matched up with spec. (not that I really trust
the numbers from Clymer, but it did help instead of hinder for once.
Get into Lucas electrics, they aren't that bad
and anything you learn will help on lonely dark nights. If Matchless is
different than Triumph, forget everything I just said.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:42:16 PST
I never had problems with my JPN charging system,
so your alternator must be alternating less than specs. You don't mention
it, but you _do_ have the dual zeners to go with the hi-output, yes? Could
be your rotor is losing its magnetism.
Every time you break the relationship between
rotor and stator (by removing one or the other) you reduce the rotor's
magnetism.
Any electric motor shop should have a re- magnetizer.
Could also be those wires coming out of the stator -- there's no strain
relief built in, so they tend to bend and ultimately fracture. This could
also reduce the alternator's output.
The simplest way to check is to buy one of Radio
Shack's cheap VOM meters (up here, a serviceable one is $19.95) and test
the voltage at various RPM levels. The hi-output (LM23) not only put out
more power in total, it also put out much more power at lower RPMs, whereas
the earlier LM21 didn't do much for you under 3,000 RPM. I'd also check
all electrical connections to make sure there's no oxidation or other gunk
to interfere with the electrical flow. And make sure your ground wires
are _well_ grounded.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 12:45:43 EST
>No clue how to test it, if you knew how much
current it should be able to supply you
The screwdriver trick is quite good. And he's
right, you need to know the specified output of the alternator to do a
max load/full field type test on it. The test requires a load tester/VAT
machine. But I suppose if you know what one is, then you probably have
access to one and know how to use it.
Not feeling very halpful.
Date: 31 Mar 1994 09:18:28 U
Well, I finally lit my Bonneville and roared up
and down the parking lot in front of an audience of horrified faces in
my aparment complex.
Boy this thing goes.
One admirer came out of her apartment and went
on about how her girlfriend LOVES Triumphs, and I should meet her. I can
tell this is going to be a good year.
Anyway, I realized that the previous owner was
no wiring expert, and the charging system is not functioning, hopefully
due to the missing connections on the rectifier.
Can another T140 or TR7RV owner run out to his/her
garage and give me the pinout for the rectifier? Also, any test hints that
you may have for the charging system would be great too. The Haynes manual
says: "The charging system can not be tested with standard equipment and
should be left to a Triumph dealer or an auto electrical expert". Yeah,
right.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 9:39:07 PST
Ah, electrics....I spent last night rebuilding
the right hand Lucas switchgear for the 76 Bonneville. Some brake fluid
was leaking in, really grotty, and I needed a dipper switch instead of
an engine cutout anyway.
Cleaned up both brake master cylinders too....yuck.
If no one comes to the rescue today, drop me a line and I will check the
rectifier when I get home. Or you can use an ohm Meter to find the diode
directions. in a square like this:
Alt *
The v's and ^'s are sposed to indicate the way
"positive current" flows through the damn thing.
So the + lead of the ohm meter should be at the
open end of the v and the - lead at the pointed end to get a low resistance
reading.
Note: many simple ohm meters have polarity reversed
vis-av-s the red and black leads that normally work +/- measuring a battery
voltage, the BLACK one is often the positive end for ohms readings.....
The alternator charging systems are pretty-damn-simple
if you have built any kind of electronic power supply involving a transformer
(alternator), rectifier, regulator (the Zener), and filter capacitor (the
battery). If you trace out the wiring diagram between the alternator and
the battery, it will look just like one of those simple PS projects you
tried to build in Jr High, before it caught fire....
The trick, leave it to the British, is that the
Zener is shorting across the alternator to limit the voltage when the engine
is at high RPM's. Testing that it is still working correctly requires a
variable voltage power supply and a resistor. With which most mechanics
can not deal...
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 13:06:34 EST
>Does anybody know of a reason why I shouldn't
use a sealed lead acid (gel cell)
I think it has to do with the maximum charge rate
which, if exceeded would produce an excss of hydrogen gas (All lead/acid
batteries will do it, it's the H in H SO (sulfuric acid): as the battery
discharges the lead gets converted to lead sulfate (PbSO ) and the hydrogen
gets released into the remainig diluted acid; Excess hydrogen would end
up escaping the acid solution into the surrounding air (reason for battery
vent, and not smoking around a charging/jumped battery) ) which whould
be a bad thing in a sealed battery.
The idea of a sealed lead/acid batter is not new
to automobiles (No Maintenance Battery) but I think it has something to
do with a calcium buffer applied to the lead plates, and I don't know how
common these batteries in motorcycling applications. I know just enough
chemistry to be dangerous.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:42:03 -0800 (PST)
>When setting the timing to x degrees BTDC you're
talking about before the TDC on
But don't let's forget about Valve Overlap. At
the top of the exhaust stroke, with many camshafts, the exhaust valve will
still be open, (just finishing) and the intake valve will also be open.(
Just starting.) But in any case, on the compression stroke, both valves
will be slack.
Just thought I'd try to avoid confusing the guy
;-).
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 08:57:13 +1100
Further to Tony Summers post: This method can
be used to do your ignition timing and you dont have to remove any primary
or rocker covers.
To find TDC on compression stroke:
1. Place m/cycle on centre stand.
2. Put in 3rd or 4th gear.
3. Take out both plugs.
4. Place finger over the plug hole.
5. Turn engine over by rotating the rear wheel
in the forward direction.
6. On the compression stroke you will feel air
pressure on finger.
Before you turn the engine past TDC. Stick a length
of straight wire down the plug hole as vertically as you can. Gently turn
the crank by rotating the rear wheel in forward direction. If you hold
the wire, you can feel the piston moving up.
Rotate the engine until the piston is at the top
of its stroke. Mark the piece of wire. Remove the wire and place another
mark 5/16" above the first mark. Find the compression stroke with the standard
finger method. Place the wire in the plug hole and you can measure 5/16"
BEFORE TDC on the compression stroke.
Pitfalls are much the same as Tony said:
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:36:16 -0800
>>If you dont have all the fancy gear to time
the ignition here is the tried and tested
Finding 5/16" BTDC. You will need: allen key (L
type), wee file, fag paper (US readers best ask for "cigarette rolling
papers) or multimeter, ruler.
Find some way of turning the engine by hand (spanner
or raise the back wheel and put it in high gear, with practice you can
use the kickstart).
To find points opening:
insert fag paper bertween points, turn the points
(method varies according to machine) in the way it would turn when the
engine was running until the fag paper is no longer gripped by the points.
The electrical meter can be used on coil systems but fag paper (you can
use sweetie wrappers instead) is the best way for magnetoes.
Combine the two steps to get points opening at
5/8" BTDC.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:46:00 -0800
This is overkill. Find the compression stroke
by putting your thumb over the plughole and turning the engine. TDC is
between where it tries to blow your thumb off and tries to suck it in.
Removing tappet covers just eats gaskets, wears threads and fasteners and
makes oil leaks.
From: dud@nucleus.att.com
Alastair Young said:
DON'T STICK THE WEE FILE INTO THE PLUG HOLE AND
USE IT INSTEAD OF THE ALLEN KEY! A long time ago, a friend of mine did
this in the motor of a freshly restored Lotus Elan (a car, for you automotively
deprived ones).
Well, the file jammed, but being a file, it SHATTERED,
filling the cylinder with teensy pieces of very sharp hardened tool steel.
He had to tear the engine down to make sure of
getting all the pieces of file out. This car soon turned into the restoration
from hell. After he put the engine back together a second time, the car
caught fire on its maiden test run, and his fire extinguisher turned out
to be empty, and so he got to restore the entire car a SECOND time.
Talk about a bad hair day!
11.5 Fitting
a Boyer Electronic Ignition Unit.
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 94 23:02:39 PST
Well, my Commando project has progressed to the
point where I've gotten it to start. It's got a Boyer ignition, which (I
think) I've installed according to instructions. BUT... It won't start
unless I move the magnets towards the pickup coils (retard?). It will then
start on the first kick and rev's freely.
Anyone remember having problems with a Boyer installation?
Also, the Boyer unit is marked 'Triumph/BSA' but
the local dealer said that the Norton units are the same.
Could this be the real problem?
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 11:37:22 PST
Depends. The Triumph twin Boyers are supposedly
identical to the Commando (or so I've heard). But I've always insisted
on a Boyer with "Norton Commando" on the box.
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 09:20:56 +1100
Ralph asking about Boyer's said:
I know that the auto advance retard is the same
for the Commando and BSA A65L, I have swapped them.
The T150 auto advance retard rotates the opposite
direction to that of the Commando and BSA A65. A Boyer marked "Triumph/BSA"
sounds to me as if its for a three cylinder bike either Triumph T150, T160,
X75 or BSA A75R
I would then expect a Boyer marked "Norton/BSA"
for a Norton Commando or BSA twin (A65L, A65T, A65 etc).
I will look at the Boyer on my BSA twin tonight
and see what is writen on it.
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:41:04 +0000 (GMT)
I've already responded directly to Ralph, but
since there has been more public speculation I guess I should have responded
to the group.
The difference between the Triumph/BSA Boyer and
the Norton Boyer stems from the differing direction of rotation of the
camshafts on these bikes.
Triumph (and I presume BSA) exhaust camshafts
rotate clockwise, while Norton ones rotate counterclockwise. This changes
the order of the pulses from the Boyer's magnetic pickups.
The actual difference between the units market
Triumph/BSA and the ones marked Norton appears to be a swap in the colored
hookup leads to account for the rotating direction.
Ralph is going to try swapping the black/white
and black/yellow leads, which should effectively turn the Triumph/BSA unit
into a Norton unit.
As has been pointed out by others, the advance
curve would be the same for the two units since all three manufacturers
used the same Lucas centrifugal advance unit.
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 20:22:53 -0500 (EST)
According to Tim Keane:
I've just finished installing a Boyer MKIII in
my '77 Bonneville and noted that the instructions explicitly stated that
the unit could be used for both Triumph/BSA (which have clockwise rotating
cams) and Nortons (with counter-clockwise rotating cams). There are two
small holes in the fibreglass plate, one which is used to align the magnets
when on Tri/BSA and the other which is used to align the magnets for the
Norton.
According to my instructions, this is the only
change required. However in the troubleshooting section it also states
that under normal conditions ".. there should be a steady current through
the coils except for the Norton unit." This seems to imply that there are
two different black boxes...
I'm guessing that the troubleshooting instructions
are for an older unit that was specifically designed for either Tri or
Norton but that the current MKIII unit serves for both?
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 21:20:25 PST
Tim Keane writes:
Well, turns out that swapping the black/white
wire with the black/yellow wire and resetting the rotor plate as per instructions
enabled the old beast to light right up on the first kick! It idles steady
at about 20 degrees advance, just like Cindy's mechanic buddy said it should,
and it moves towards 28 degrees just like it should (did I mention that
it was 'advancing' towards TDC before?).
BUT!!!!! It's absolutely f*cking amazing just
how yellow a twenty year old white strip on a black wire looks...
Yep, I had the wires crossed to begin with! SH*T!!!!!
Mea culpa. Hail Mary. This implies that there is *no* difference between
the Norton unit and the Triumph/BSA Twin units except for the label.
Thanks to the many responders. It's good to know
that there's all this excellent help out there!
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 18:59:57 PST
Another useful tidbit... I called the shop where
I bought my Boyer (Cascade Classic Cycle) and asked what, if any, where
the differences between the Norton and Triumph ignitions units.
They called the factory, which said they're the
same. Cascade then called the folks at Dyna, and they also said that their
Norton/Triumph units are the same.
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 10:30:24 PST
Paul wonders why anybody would want to install
a Boyer on their Commando. _I_ wonder why anybody _wouldn't_. Set and forget.
I don't fancy the notion of my timing going out of whack, and I also like
that fact that if there's anything wrong with the Boyer, you know about
it immediately (because it stops working) rather than, maybe, having to
do a bunch of troubleshooting.
I also prefer alternators to magnetos, Roadholders
to girders, gas shocks to jampots, barrel rollers to caged balls, etc.,
etc. Concours is fine -- for minor putting.
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:40:03 -0800
"John Kula" wrote:
I don't want to start a flame war and I really
do believe that there is enough room in this world for all points of view
(but not enough room for a larger population). However..... One of the
reasons that I like old motorcycles is that I grew up with them and another
is that they were built so that the average rider could fix them. I work
in high tech.
I am beginning to hate computers. In the 1960's
we were sold on the notion that computers would lighten our loads and give
us more free time to enjoy the things that we really wanted to do (and
liked to do). It didn't work out that way. Computers only made it so that
we have to do more and do it faster. But I digress (old age )... I like
things that I understand and can fix.
I look under the hood of my 1990's car, shake
my head and gentle close it without touching anything. A lot of the bikes
at the Seattle Cycle Show this weekend were the same. Are they reliable.
Heck, yes! Do the handle well? Absolutely! Are they awe aspring and magnificent?
Definitely! But when they break, you had better have a very extensive workshop
and an excellent technical background and access to a good parts inventory
or you better just take it back to the dealer.
Ever read the story of the Brit who rode a single
cylinder bike around the world in 1934. Great passage where he knocked
a hole in the crank case and lost the oil. Plugged the hold with a piece
of wood. Filled the crank case with peeled bananas and started it. Kept
feeding in bananas until the "oil" level got up to normal. Rode it about
150 miles to a blacksmith and "real" oil.
Lets just say that I'm getting a little old and
don't mind going a little slower for something that I can take entirely
apart and put back together with a reasonable chance that it will still
run and that in a pinch I can take a file to piece of iron and make a new
part for.
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 08:45:35 CST
I see some stuff comming along that illustrates
one of the great strengths that motrocyclists have over most groups of
people.
The discussion of stock -vs-upgrades -vs-retrograde
-vs-technoid in terms of what you ride has always gone on, the extremes
visited on occasion and many a pint tossed in support of whatever is favored.
Then comes the bit about trying to explain why you ride to a non-rider,
a "those-things-are-dangerous" auntie, and at once all the differences
vanish.
Andy Wolf is right, he never will understand
why people ride old bikes in a stock state, anymore than Tom Johnson will
be convinced that his concentrics or monoblocks aren't the cats meow. If
that was what this group was really all about, it wouldn't be Brit-Iron
because every one of us that own, ride, work on and love English scooters
have heard a million times how Brits leak oil, they have no real speed,
they're unreliable, they're old and past their prime etc, etc, et smegging
cetera.
The fact is, there's plenty of arguments in
any direction, but if you REALLY want to get going about old motorcycles,
just remember what you ride. If it isn't a `95 or newer, SOMEBODY is going
to call it an OLD bike.
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 17:00:28 EST
Here's a bit of wisdom taken from my sentance
in school for Automotive Service; It makes too much sense for me not to
share this with everyone.
The situation: the classroom.
The question (student): "Did you ever notice that
Autolite sparks wear out earlier in a Chevy than AC's do?"
The answer (instructor): "Yes, this is not uncommon,
though most people never notice it. The fact is that when a company designs
an engine (Actually, people with engineering and many other types of degrees
design an engine, as a team working for a company.) they, understandably,
use their own brand of spark plugs (GM = AC, Ford = Autolite, Chrysler
= Champion) in the design and testing process. So it only stands to reason
that these are the plugs with which you would get the most out of the engine
(since the crossreferenced plugs, listed by other manufacturers, are only
approximations, and not the real McCoy.
---[ Bonus Question: What did McCoy design to
gain him the distinction of such a phrase?] )
I know this may not be true for every engine,
but it makes a whole lotta sense. So check your owners manuals and rebuild
reference guides and find out what is listed as the recommended spark for
your mount (I think Japan Inc. uses NGK on all of it's bikes).
If this advice is known to be bogus by way of
superior knowledge or experience, please tell me. I hate to be a perveyer
of misinformation. I guess 2 years and an AOS in Automotive Service is
worth something. It never looks like it when you are facing 2.5 more years
in college to get a BS in Computer Science.
11.8 Halogen
Hedlamp Conversion.
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 16:25:51 EST
Bosch makes a lens and halogen lamp said to fit
in a 7" diameter Lucas headlight. Is the conversion as simple as replacing
these parts, or is there some other change required? (like rewiring the
bike).
Date: Thus, 24 Mar 94 16:35:55 EST
>Bosch makes a lens and halogen lamp said to fit
in a 7" diameter Lucas headlight. Is
You may have trouble with the parking light. Lucas
reflectors had a hole in them, the halogen light I have does not. I have
also seen them with a clear spot in the silvering but no hole in the glass,
these require a special connector which has a mini reflector hung under
it for the parking light.
Try the scrapyard for these.... Also the dip beam
on halogen is usually 55W rather than 35W. This may present problems for
aging Lucas generators :-)
I also found that the halogen had three little
glass prongs which got in the way of my rim, but this was on a 5 3/4" light.
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 14:36:03 PST
John Pinkham writes:
I got a halogen kit from DJ's in Portland Oregon.
It came with a bulb, replacement reflector and plug adaptor. You do lose
the parking light. Oh well... Like it's useful for anything.
The halogen kit is from a company called Cebie
or something like. I've got the box at home and can look tonight. Cascade
has the same kit, but without the all-important plug adaptor! The reflector
fit right into the stock headlight rim. The plug adaptor is easilr connected
to the wiring harness, either with Lucas bullet connectors or replacements
from the local hardware store. Took about 10 minutes to install. The light
it throws out is GREAT!
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 1994 01:00:14 -0800 (PST)
John Pinkham writes:
I bought the halogen conversion kit from Fair
Spares recently ($46.50) and installation is a snap. However, the lamp
which comes with the kit is a 65/60 and I don't find that this is much
of an improvement.
I've got a 100 watt high beam on one of my Beemers
that burns a jumbo hole in the environment and I think I may get another
for the Norton. It seemed to me that the lens was somehow restricting the
65 watts that I did have.
Hmmm, will have to go look at the various lenses
to see if there are differences. I don't ride much at night anymore though
so I haven't looked into it.
Some bikes will not handle a halogen conversion.
I tried to wire in a halogen lamp on my T100C and the bike wouldn't run
properly. I'm fairly certain the wiring was intact and when I asked John
Gallivan about it he confirmed that some do, some don't. The problem may
have been that I was running a Mighty Max, no battery. I went back to stock.
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 1994 09:38:55 -0800
>Some bikes will not handle a halogen conversion.
I tried to wire in a halogen lamp
If your generator is not up to the load your battery
will run flat (or if you have no battery then your sparks won't work. Vive
la magneto!). When this happens it is guaranteed to be in the wrong place.
Like on a touring holidy in Norway in a narrow unlit 700m tunnel.......
(yes, this happened to me)
Date: 28 Mar 1994 14:38:08 U
I noticed a 7" round halogen in JC Whitney for
around 17 bucks. Seems a little cheaper than the Bosch conversion. Anybody
out there bought one of these things before?
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 16:27:41 CST
>I noticed a 7" round halogen in JC Whitney for
around 17 bucks. Seems a little
The ones they sent me a few years ago were "Autoarche"
or something like that (French) and were for cars, but didn't dip noticably
to the right on low beam. They used the "old" style lamp with the large
metal backing plate and standard three prong connector fitting. They even
had 6V models, but I haven't seen that offered lately. The lens had a real
funky "V" lens pattern. I'm still running one on my Indian Chief - it took
a little tab bending to make it fit properly in the shell.
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 14:32:20 -0800 (PST)
On 28 Mar 1994, Marty Ross wrote: >
I just jammed a Philips 7" halogen car light I
originally bought for mum's Rabbit, but never got around to installing.
It seems to work just fine. It's a lot brighter than the regular bulb type
Lucas, (although I had to do without the Park Light bulb within - a great
little battery saver in tese days of mandatory headlights all the time.
Speaking of which, in my attempts to keep my battery
charged up all the time, in preparation for those long cold rides up the
Kettle river from the Curlew Tavern, when the light gets dimmer and the
motor gets missier, I used to run the park light during the day. It looked
like the headlight was on, unless of course the sun was shining on it.
Since I shitcanned the Zener Diode anyway, (for
turning excess electrical power into heat. Good joke!) I replaced it with
a clear clearance light, which I run during the day. Sitting there under
the headlight bucket, it looks kinda bright (since its in the shade a lot)
and drqws less juice than the old alternator can provide, thus maintaining
a decent charging, or at least maintenance voltage on the battery. We mustn't
forget that it's really an accumulator. For accumulating an electron savings
account for that long dark ride home.
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 17:13:06 EST
The Lucas horn on my Commando has a little too
much "British reserve" i.e. it's feeble. Need something that can be heard
above the roar of two mighty reverse megaphone "silencers" (ha,ha).
The Norton Tech Digest 2, notes that Fiamm electric
horns are the way to go. Anyone put air horns on?
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 14:34:35 -0800
>The Lucas horn on my Commando has a little too
much "british reserve" i.e. it's
I have twin Fiamms on the '56. Never had to use
them in anger but they scare the willies out of the cat. You need a good
solenoid. I had one which melted once in the "on" position. Very loud,
very battery draining.
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 18:02:40 PST
John Pinkham writes:
I've got a pair of Fiam replicas (on another bike,
destined for the Norton) They are, to put it simply, VERY, VERY LOUD. These
came from IPD (a local V*lv* toy store) and were about $30, relay included.
Installation is mostly a mater of figuring out where to mount them and
running a new wire/fuse from the battery. The old horn button/wire is used
to activate the relay.
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 8:30:24 EST
> From John.Pinkham@lambada.oit.unc.edu Tue
Mar 29 17:51:34 1994
No, but Hella horns that were OEM on MB CD
400 in the mid '80's were pretty bloody loud (though a BIT expensive).
And they're less obtrusive than Air Horns.
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 9:43:59 EST
> John Pinkham writes:
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 7:54:20 PST
> From John.Pinkham@lambada.oit.unc.edu Tue Mar
29 17:51:34 1994
I have a pair of Fiamms on my Beemer and can tell
you that you can get a cages attention whenever you want with them. Have
not put them on the Commando yet, but plan to....
11.11 The
Source of an annoying little Squeek.
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 12:27:39 GMT
Regarding my Norton Commando, I have just found
the source of an annoying little squeek and feel the information might
benifit other owners:
After the engine has been running for about 15-20
Mins, a regular squeek like a dry hinge-on-a-door, ie: A metal-to-metal
running dry sort of noise.
This got me very worried, as you can perhapse
imagine. I checked the bike over, it was comming from the front of the
engine, sort of cylinder head/barrel area. Initally I though it was a problem
with the rockers, off came the covers, there was plenty of oil, but were
the rocker spindles the right way round ?
On removing the rocker spindle end plates, one
spindle was loose enough to turn in a cold head, so I fiddled about and
ensured all spindles engaged in the end plates correctly. The inner plates
contain a raise flange which locates with the slot in the end of the spindles.
Noise was still there.
I then consulted Les Emmery, Fair Spairs for advise:
He felt It might be a cam follower running dry, and suggested running the
Engine with the exaust rocker covers off and squirting oil down the push
rod tubes.
Apparently, there are parts of the cam followers
with oil holes in that need to be fitted the right way up/round. I tried
this, but after getting the engine hot, removing the spark plugs and turing
it over by hand, no luck.
Still the Noise was there. Its a funny thing,
the noise gets louder to you because you know its there, but it was getting
to a point where other people would also notice and comment.
At this stage I was considering two options:
First strip the top end of the engine, and face
the possibility that that would in its self resolve the problem and I would
never know the cause, until that is I ran the engine again where the noise
would re-appear.
Secondly, run the bike until it goes wrong then
fix the thing, which could be a costly, unscientific and inconvienient
option.
Well, after a week or so I got the engine hot,
which got the noise going, rode it into the garage, removed the spark plugs
and by turning the engine over by hand found the noise was comming from
the points/auto advance.
When I removed the plate holding the points silence
fell upon the garage ! So, the cause of the problem, when I had been setting
the timing I had removed the felt wicks from the points assembily, the
ones there to oil the cam, the cam had run dry causing the points to scrape
on the cam and make the noise.
I now assume the noise resonated in the Cylinders
and Head. You can now congratulate yourselves for fitting a Boyer unit
with no parts that connect, and before you ask, yes I did fit a Boyer once
but removed it for the following reasons:
1. Its not authentic, (doesn't represent the Electrical/Machanical
technology around at the time)
2. Its still possible to get all the right bits,
or should that be original bits.
3. I stand more chance of getting the thing running
again if it goes wrong. (What the hell do you do with the Boyer black box
if it packs up, which of course will never happen.)
4. I found that the vibration charactoristics
of the Engine changed with the Boyer fitted, any one else with the same
experiance ?
11.12 Electrical
Circuit, trouble shooting.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 17:00:47 -0800 (PST)
Now, for the electrics problem. I'm just about
anecdoted out, and I've had supper since starting this thing, so the combined
effects of semi- starbation and cocktail hour have about worn off, and
this should take less time, you may or may not be glad to hear.
Lucas never did really get the picture, did they?
Those of us who can remember brand new Lucas Equipment
can also remember the odd dude whose lights actually worked just fine for
years, but we can also remember blown generators, points fusing inexplicably
in regulators, and lights blowing bulbs regularly. (That's why L. used
those bulb-type lights, I bet. So's you can carry a couple of spares in
your toolbox.
The toolbox was never an accessory on britbikes.
As for regulators, you're on your own. Carry a spare one of those, and
the vibration that killed #1 would have done in #2 by the time you needed
it.) Them were the days of the separate generator, or the "Magdyno" - a
combination of both sort of strapped together.
The generator was just that - a miniature car
generator. Cute little thing. Cost about 2 weeks pay when it died, and
nobody seemed to be able to fix the little bastards. Or when they did,
it was half the price of a new one, for a new armature or field winding.
Called it a dynamo.
One of the reasons why people rode Harleys in
those days -they got tired of riding around in the middle of the pack,
where the cops might not see them (fat chance), and/or feeling their way
home down the side streets when they got caught out at night.
So, one would think, there was much rejoicing
when Lucas finally developed an alternator system. Wrong. It took them
a long time to get it right. The first was on the '53 Tri Speed Twin. A
friend brought me one to see if I could puzzle out the electrics once,
when it was about 4 or 5 years old. The wiring diagram (Triumph did have
good owners manuals) was enough to scare Frankenstein.
They had special windings that were switched in
when you turned on the lights, and all kinds of shit. In fact, I think
that the light winding ran AC to the Lights, but the battery charging winding
was rectified, but the battery was there to help drive the lights, so how
did they work that out?............. I can't remember all the details,
but it was a nightmare, I remember that.
I also remember thanking my lucky stars I had
a magneto (they always worked well) for ignition, and my lights even worked
sometimes, on most of the junk I was riding, anyway. Another problem of
the time was getting that AC the alternator put out de-lumped down to some
sort of DC for charging the "accumulator"-that black lump that smelled
like a battery. The one at the top of the mess of stains on the chaincase.
For this, they used a comparitively state of-the-art device called the
selenium rectifier.
Since, up til then, vacuum tubes were the only
way to rectify any kind of current at all, it was quite an improvement.
In fact, it was so good, that, when it was brand new, and you had a brand
new permanent-magnet alternator in front of it, it probly put out enough
current to keep a fair charge on the battery. Although the fact that England
had a parking-light law, which required all vehicles parked on the street
to show lights front and rear all night, really mystified me. Must have
been a lot of busts for that one!
Anyhow, back to the problems of today, for us.
The permanent magnet alternator is the first weak link of the chain. Ever
take a bicycle generator apart? It's just a round magnet, on the end of
the drive shaft, spinning in a coil of wire. The wheel goes around, and
whatever juice is produced goes into the light bulbs. If you pedal faster,
the lights get brighter.
I guess if you let'er go down Marine Drive hill,
the bulbs blow. The situation is similar with the Lucas Alternator. Except
that the magnet is on the end of the crankshaft, and the range of rpm that
it goes through is a bit greater. Detroit, working on the problem, figured
out that about the only way to control the wild voltage (and therefore
current) fluctuation (and this in a cage! putt putt putt!) was to vary
the strength of the magnet, by using an electomagnetic field winding, controlled
by the voltage regulator. But Mr Lucas, not wanting to go further than
the good ol' bicycle generator he had sold for so long (hey! -they both
have two wheels, don't they?) didn't want to go to the trouble of all those
brushes and stuff, so he figured he'd stick with the basics. (Good part-it's
small -fits good in the chaincase, there. Look at the mess they made when
they thought they'd do electric starters!)
So here's the problems: First, if you make the
magnet too powerful, or put too many turns in the coil, you'll make way
too much voltage at high r's. But if you don't put in enough, you'll starve
the system (and the battery) (and the ignition) at low r's. The patchup
for this little problem is even funnier. The Zener Diode Well, since he
couldn't vary the output of the alternator to adjust for conditions (although
he did try with the multi-winding stuff like on the early speed twin),
he figured to vary the voltage input to the system with the prostate gland
of the current regulation world -the Zener Diode.
What it does is allow the system to run up to
a certain voltage, and then, once the voltage (is it the "knee" voltage,
or the "step" voltage? -who gives a shit?), what it does has to be seen
to be believed, given the problems we all have had with Lucas. Know what
it does? It GROUNDS the damn electrical system! Actually, it's not a dead
short - it allegedly converts the excess current to heat; that's why it's
mounted on a large mass "heat sink", like an airbox, footrest bracket,
or that silly little finned thing that I replaced on my Triumph with a
Clearance Light for day riding. Well, sir. Back in the early '50's, that
was the technology. So why does a '78 Triumph still use it? Has the tech
changed in the meantime? Didn't a lot of other electronic developments
happen in the interim? The answer, dear reader (if you're still here) is
Yes. Ditto, only more so, for the selenium rectifier. F'r instance, Radio
shack now sell, for $3.53, a 25Ampere Full Wave Bridge Rectifier, Solid
State of course, and ready to go. It's part number is 276-1185. Beats hell
out of the price of a 20 year-old dried-up selenium rectifier which had
probly a quarter of the efficiency in its best day. It has four terminals.
Two are labelled AC, and they connect to your alternator output. One is
labelled +, and it goes to whatever the + of the battery is connected to.
The one that's left, -, goes to the other side. (BTW, ya know why the Brits,
the greatest engineers in the world, if you can appreciate a little funkiness,
use positive ground? 'Cause it minimizes battery terminal sulphation, that's
why.
The only Real Question is why some other people
use Negative Ground. Same reason they ride on the wrong side of the road,
so their sword arm will be where they'd have to be left-handed to defend
themselves, I guess.) Anyway, that little RS276-1185, properly heat-sinked
of course, just might have enough extra efficiency to make up for the age
factor on Mr. Alternator. Let's Hope. It's done it for me. Of course, the
Zener Diode is in every case I have yet experienced completely superfluous.
Too much power? Please, Mr. Lucas, I gotta weak heart! But what if (and
I should live long enough to see this) it actually makes too much power,
and even running with your lights on day and night, your battery begins
to boil and bubble and generally overcharge? If it happens to anybody,
I'd really like to hear about it. We could probly sell your alternator
to the Martians or something. NASA at least. (Waitaminute. NASA *IS* the
Martians. Or is it? Can we talk about thislater on alt.conspiracy?)
Seriously, I have thrown away a lot of Zener Diodes,
and never had a complaint. Oh yes -one Norton 850 I wired once (I love
to make up wiring looms with 1/4 of the wire in them, but that's another
story. For plans, send $5 and a carton of Delicados) actually developed
enough power, sin Zener, to boil the battery. So I cancelled my advice
to him about running with the in-lamp parking light only in daylight, and
use the main light. No more problem.
If it had persisted, we would have poped a Halogen
in there. This is in the sticks, with 95% if riding at highway speeds.
My '69 TR6 has a Halogen Headlight, and a clearance light for daytime,
no zener, and no battery problems. My '71 Daytona has no zener, and I can't
run the lights in the daytime, if I don't want to run out of battery an
hour after dark. Man, did it take me a long time to figure all this out.
My first alternator Daytona that I used as a street bike just about drove
me crazy. It kept cutting out on one cylinder at strange times. Took me
a couple of months to figure out it was low battery, since when I stopped
to screw around, switching coils and plugs and stuff back and forth, "troubleshooting,"
the battery would build up again enough to get me home.
Too much time with magnetos and emt Tri dirt bikes;
too much time taking charging systems for granted.
Finally, I got it right: Coil ignition don't work
so hot without primary system voltage. A voltmeter should be in every headlight,
but I'm so used to seeing that silly Lucas Ammeter bounce around, I'd miss
it.
From: Frank Gehrke
From: bellas@gamma.tti.com (Bellas)
From: growl@terminous.Eng.Sun.COM (William
L. Grouell)
From: Peter Aslan
From: Graeme Harrison
>I'd just like to point out that Lucas electrical
systems were "good enough for the
>English," too. The modern Triumphs use a German-Japanese
electrical system...
From: David Toepfer
>It was been noted that British Motorcycles is
misleading as they should be called
>English Motorcycles mainly because they were
built in England and ad nothing to do
>with the good citizens of Scotland, Wales, Ireland
and such. "You got one of them
>Limey bikes, eh?" ;-)
From: Tim Keane
>[...] Probably if it still works at all it's
not all that bad off, when they start to lose
>output it's usually due to the rotor losing
its magnetism, there are shops that will re
>magnetise rotors, sounds like
>yours might need it. [...]
From: Latte' Jed
>determine whether or not it's a rotor problem?
And how about the name of one or
>more shops that will remagnetise the rotor if
that turns out to be the problem?
From: Terry Drehmel
From: John Kula
Tim sez
>
>My JPN has what was considered the "high output"
alternator in '74 because of the
>extra draw of the dual headlights.
From: David B Toepfer
>>So, any idea how to accurately test the alternator
output, and specifically how to
>>determine whether or not it's a rotor problem?
And how about the name of one or
>>more shops that will remagnetise the rotor
if that turns out to be the problem?
>could clamp an ammeter on it. I had a problem
with a T100, I pulled the rotor out
>and compared how heavy a screwdriver it could
lift with a spare I had, the spare was
>stronger so I put it in and it fixed the problem.
From: "Marty Ross"
From: schip@tfs.com (Michael Schippling)
/ \
v ^ / \ + *
* - \ / ^ v
\ /
* Alt
From: David B Toepfer
>battery in a motorcycle? I assume there must
be a reason because they'd theoretically
>be so good -never need filling and they couldn't
spill.
From: Peter Snidal
>the comression stroke. To check whether its
on the compression stroke or the
>exhaust stroke, put the piston at TDC, remove
tappet covers and try to wiggle the
>rocker arms. Assuming the clearance are set,
then on the compression stroke there
>will be some slack on both the inlet and exhaust
rocker arms for the cylinder, on the
>exhaust stroke only the inlet one will have
clearance, as the exhaust valve will
>(hopefully) be being held open. Getting this
wrong means that sparks happen on the
>exhaust stroke, with strange effects. (same
effect as swapping plug leads)
From: Roy Armstrong
>1) on most (all?) british vertical twins both
pistons rise and fall together. Hence they
>both reach tdc at the same time. However one
will be on the compression stroke, and
>one on the exhaust stroke at the time. When
setting the timing to x degrees BTDC
>you're talking about before the TDC on the comression
stroke.
>
>2) due to the backlash in the system from manufacturing
tolerances, wear, etc, always
>try to turn the engine up towards the angle
BTDC in its normal running direction. If you go past TDC you can turn the
engine backwards but you MUST ROTATE IT FORWARD again to find the correct
timing position.
From: alastair@cadence.com (Alastair Young)
>>method that will get things going:
>>
>>With advance unit locked to full advance the
points should begin to open with the
>>piston at 5/16" BTDC
>>
>>Breaker gap 0.015"
>>
>>Safe riding Roy.
> >Thought it was about time the average skill
/ knowledge level of this forum was
>lowered somewhat!
>
>Anyone fancy trying to help out an ignorant
(lurking) newcomer to all this mechanical
>stuff ?
Why an allen key? You can't drop it all the way in
and you probably have one in your toolkit for the case screws anyway.
From: alastair@cadence.com (Alastair Young)
>>When setting the timing to x degrees BTDC you're
talking about before the TDC on
>>the comression stroke. To check whether its
on the compression stroke or the
>>exhaust stroke, put the piston at TDC, remove
tappet covers and try to wiggle the
>>rocker arms. Assuming the clearance are set,
then on the compression stroke there
>>will be some slack on both the inlet and exhaust
rocker arms for the cylinder, on the
>>exhaust stroke only the inlet one will have
clearance, as the exhaust valve will
>>(hopefully) be being held open. Getting this
wrong means that sparks happen on the
>>exhaust stroke, with strange effects. (same
effect as swapping plug leads)
>>
>But don't let's forget about Valve Overlap.
At the top of the exhaust stroke, with
>many camshafts, the exhaust valve will still
be open, (just finishing) and the intake
>valve will also be opejn.( Just starting.) But
in any case, on the compression stroke,
>both valves will be slack. Just thought I'd
try to avoid confusing the guy ;-).
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 09:07 EST on Mon, 28 Feb
1994 14:36:16 -0800,
> >> With advance unit locked to full advance
the points should begin
> >> to open with the piston at 5/16" BTDC
> >>
> >> Breaker gap 0.015"
> >>
> >> Safe riding Roy.
> >
> >Thought it was about time the average skill
/ knowledge level of this
> >forum was lowered somewhat! > >
> Finding 5/16" BTDC.
> great description deleted
>
> Stick the long end of the allen key down the
plughole and HANG ON TO IT,
> don't let it tilt or in might get jammed.
>
From: Ralph Merwin
From: John Kula
From: Roy Armstrong
>Also, the Boyer unit is marked 'Triumph/BSA'
but the local dealer said that the
>Norton units are the same. Could this be the
real problem?
From: Tim Keane
From: Norm Young
>I've already responded directly to Ralph, but
since there has been more public
>speculation I guess I should have responded
to the group. The difference between the
>Triumph/BSA Boyer and the Norton Boyer stems
from the differing direction of
>rotation of the camshafts on these bikes. Triumph
(and I presume BSA) exhaust
>camshafts rotate clockwise, while Norton ones
rotate counterclockwise. This changes
>the order of the pulses from the Boyer's magnetic
pickups.
>
>The actual difference between the units market
Triumph/BSA and the ones marked
>Norton appears to be a swap in the colored hookup
leads to account for the rotating
>direction. Ralph is going to try swapping the
black/white and black/yellow leads,
>which should effectively turn the Triumph/BSA
unit into a Norton unit. As has been
>pointed out by others, the advance curve would
be the same for the two units since
>all three manufacturers used the same Lucas
centrifugal advance unit.
From: Ralph Merwin
>The actual difference between the units market
Triumph/BSA and the ones marked
>Norton appears to be a swap in the colored hookup
leads to account for the rotating
>direction. Ralph is going to try swapping the
black/white and black/yellow leads,
>which should effectively turn the Triumph/BSA
unit into a Norton unit. As has been
>pointed out by others, the advance curve would
be the same for the two units since
>all three manufacturers used the same Lucas
centrifugal advance unit.
From: ralph@swmerc.rain.com (Ralph Merwin)
From: John Kula
From: Tom Johnson On Jan 17, 10:30am,
>I also prefer alternators to magnetos, Roadholders
to girders, gas shocks to jampots,
>barrel rollers to caged balls, etc., etc. Concours
is fine --for minor putting.
From: Terry Drehmel
From: David B Toepfer
From: John Pinkham
From: alastair@cadence.com (Alastair Young)
>the conversion as simple as replacing these
parts, or is there some other change
>required? (like rewiring the bike).
From: ralph@swmerc.rain.com (Ralph Merwin)
> Bosch makes a lens and halogen lamp said to
fit in a 7" diameter Lucas headlight. Is
>the conversion as simple as replacing these
parts, or is there some other change
>required? (like rewiring the bike).
From: Nancy J Caputo
> Bosch makes a lens and halogen lamp said to
fit in a 7" diameter Lucas headlight. Is
>the conversion as simple as replacing these
parts, or is there some other change
>required? (like rewiring the bike).
From: alastair@cadence.com (Alastair Young)
>on my T100C and the bike wouldn't run properly.
I'm fairly certain the wiring was
>intact and when I asked John Gallivan about
it he confirmed that some do, some
>don't. The problem may have been that I was
running a Mighty Max, no battery. I
>went back to stock.
From: "Marty Ross"
From: kichline@mpd.tandem.com (Chuck Kichline)
>cheaper than the Bosch conversion. Anybody out
there bought one of these things
>before?
> Marty Ross
From: Peter Snidal
I noticed a 7" round halogen in JC Whitney for
around 17 bucks. Seems a
> little cheaper than the Bosch conversion. Anybody
out there bought one of
> these things before?
From: John Pinkham
From: alastair@cadence.com (Alastair Young)
>feeble. Need something that can be heard above
the roar of two mighty reverse
>megaphone "silencers" (ha,ha). The Norton Tech
Digest 2, notes that Fiamm electric
>horns are the way to go. Anyone put air horns
on?
From: ralph@swmerc.rain.com (Ralph Merwin)
>The Lucas horn on my Commando has a little too
much "british reserve" i.e. it's
>feeble. Need something that can be heard above
the roar of two mighty
> reverse megaphone "silencers" (ha,ha). The
Norton Tech Digest 2,
> notes that Fiamm electric horns are the way
to go. Anyone put air horns on?
From: David B Toepfer
> The Lucas horn on my Commando [...] it's
feeble.
> Need something that can be heard [...]
> Anyone put air horns on?
From: John Pinkham
> > The Lucas horn on my Commando has a little
too much "british reserve" i.e.
> > it's feeble. Need something that can be heard
above the roar of two mighty
> > reverse megaphone "silencers" (ha,ha). The
Norton Tech Digest 2,
> > notes that Fiamm electric horns are the way
to go. Anyone put air horns on?
> > I've heard that Caddy horns are pretty good
replacements. They're
> loud, cheap and look OK. Hmm, sounds a bit
like my last girlfriend.;)
>
Chuck Chuck, all that sewing on the Brit-Iron
shirts must have weakened your cognitive facilities. A thoroughbred from
the Norton-Villiers stable would reject outright an organ (or horn) transplant
from a GM product.
From: John Bria
> > The Lucas horn on my Commando [...] it's
feeble.
> Need something that can be heard [...]
> Anyone put air horns on?
From: Peter Aslan
From: Peter Snidal